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#61 papasmurfbell

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 08:13 AM

I always thought Andy was doing a great job.  He was starting so far in the hole he couldn't fix it all while he was here.

 

You have to remember at the time peopel were pissed about the Bedard trade.  They wanted to keep their fan fav.  

 

The Hardy trade was trading two losers for an all star.  Again sometimes those players that aren't good that you get in a trade can in turn be turned into something else.

 

In the Miggy and Davis trade concept I say trade Davis so you don't have to pay him big money.  Also you would turn him into parts that are also cheap but help in more positions.  

 

Are you saying Luke Scott was not a real help while he was here?  Hitting for a good average and a good amount of power and cost the O's nothing.  

 

 

I think you get at least something between them.  


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#62 dc.

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 02:49 PM

I am saying Luke Scott never played for q decent team and that's not coincidence.
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#63 dc.

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 02:58 PM

I'll expand that: I'm saying if we got the same haul for Davis that we got for Tejada, we'd be in worse shape now. If we made that trade in 2013, we don't win the division or make the payoffs in 2014. If we make it last year, we don't win the division or go to the Alcs and we're a worse team today.

By the way - please go reconsider Scott's "decent average"
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#64 papasmurfbell

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 04:31 PM

But he was useful while he was around.  The are going to lose him anyway so go for the trade.

 

I looked.  He hit I think 272 one yr.  I also remember 250 something in there.  His last yr here was bad.  But not as bad as Davis has been at the plate the last yr and change.


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#65 dc.

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 06:49 PM

I would objectively disagree that he was not as bad as Davis the last two years. Besides being a poor fielder, he was wildly inconsistent at the plate.

Meanwhile, what I'm saying is this: a team full of Matt Albers, Luke Scott and Troy Patton isn't winning games. We tried. It failed.
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#66 papasmurfbell

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 06:58 PM

But it was Andy fixing the whole system.  Of course you aren't winning with that.  The farm system is pretty well stocked and it isn't like Andy looking for warm bodies.  Why is it that the Rays can make these trades and get large returns?


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#67 dc.

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 07:25 PM

But it was Andy fixing the whole system.  Of course you aren't winning with that.  The farm system is pretty well stocked and it isn't like Andy looking for warm bodies.  Why is it that the Rays can make these trades and get large returns?

 

Same two thoughts, broken record style:

 

1. Right, Andy was rebuilding. But we're not rebuilding anymore. Albers-Scott-Patton was a fine enough haul to hold over a team that wasn't competitive, though ideally it would have contributed more in the long-term. But Albers-Scott-Patton is not an acceptable return when you're in the midst of a series of winning seasons when you can't afford to trade a Davis for a Scott and assume all will be fine. 

 

2. The Rays make a ton of trades. They get big returns in numbers. And yet they don't always pan out - in fact they don't really ever pan out in the long run. The Rays do huge numbers in their trades, but not always huge return. David Price got them Drew Smyly, Nick Franklin and Willy Adames. (Speaking of which... if that's all they could get for David Price? No thank you on trading Chris Davis... even if he falters). They traded 4 guys away (mostly prospects) in the Wil Myers trade to get 5 guys back. None are difference makers. They traded Ben Zobrist and Yunel Escobar to get three players, the biggest name being John Jaso. 

 

And that's why the Rays - who made 4 playoff appearances WITH David Price, Carl Crawford, James Shields and the like - are not perennial World Series contenders. They make a big splash when the names line up - which isn't actually all that often. 

 

By the way - how about this for proving to be horribly wrong in the Rays - trade AWAY James Shields and Wade Davis (and ptbnl) in return for? Wil Myers, Jake Odorizzi (maybe worth it?), Patrick Leonard and Mike Montgomery. Whoops. I'd take Shields and Davis.

 

They also have let plenty of players walk without a trade - like Crawford - and of course held on to Evan Longoria (15 year contract(!) starting in 2008). Keeps him cheap for sure, but his 271 career average and fading power aren't quite what they were banking on. 


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#68 papasmurfbell

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 07:33 PM

You would be looking for different kinds of parts.  Also Miggy was not that wanted at that point.  His star had dimmed here.  Davis was going red hot at the time.  

 

They screwed up by not trading Price earlier.  They went all in and gave him the contract.  They should have traded him a coupel of yrs ago when he had a yr left.  Price was pitching better then and the haul would have been better.


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#69 dc.

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 07:39 PM

Trade him a few years earlier and I'm sure they make the playoffs in all those seasons. 


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#70 dc.

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 08:03 PM

By the way, you are wrong about the Rays and the Price contract. He was still under arbitration this year with the Tigers. He set a new arbitration record - 19m - but still under team control this season (and of course, when they traded him). So they didn't "give him a contract" ever. The Rays always paid him arbitration amounts (or less).


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#71 papasmurfbell

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 08:41 PM

The Rays had to give him a bunch.  People including me were surprised when they brought him back.


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#72 dc.

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 08:49 PM

But giving him his just due under control is no hindrance to his trade value. You're completely disconnecting from the question.

Trading Price, even earlier, would have netted a better value only because of the sought addition if added time, not because of money savings. Trading him would have also cost the Rays his production, obviously, and it's hard to imagine then competing as they did without his production.

Trade him in 2011, miss the playoffs a bit more than already, and maybe have two Drew Smylys instead of one this year!
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#73 papasmurfbell

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 07:45 AM

Well really it was what last yr that they kept him longer.  They would have been better trading him earlier.


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#74 dc.

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 06:52 PM

How much of a different do you think the four months made in his value? Wouldn't have changed his contract. Arguably they got more moving him at the deadline when a team was desperate, as the Tigers were dying to hold off KC and Oakland...
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