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How will Leonard / Landry pan out next season ?


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#21 colincac

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 01:06 PM

Like I said earlier the 5 DB offers a lot of advantages. We aren't sure about Gregg coming back next year though, or McAlister, so we can't be too sure on that. I don't think it would require Leonhard bulking up either, if those 4 Linemen were to be the 4 starting, I don't see how its possible for anyone to run on us, and pretty much everyone after the line would be running free at the ball carrier. Leonhard has shown he can tackle well, and in that set-up, we would need his speed as much as anything.
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#22 ForceEight

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 01:38 PM

You guys must all be absolute STARS at Madden and that philosophy. laugh.gif There's no possible way this defense is running a five back set as the standard formation. laugh.gif

The most comical thing I read was that you think no one would be able to run on us. We'd give up a dozen yards through the middle on every play.

In the same respect, how is Leonhard in any way better than Landry against the run? As well, how does the ability to tackle make Leonhard a superior athlete, when that's the SOLE primary job of the strong safety?

Leonhard's quicker and seems to find himself in the right place quite often, but Landry is the better safety in most circumstances. Let's not entirely overlook someone just because they haven't been on the field in awhile.

You dreamers. Keep it up! laugh.gif
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#23 dc.

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 02:06 PM

QUOTE
Leonhard's quicker and seems to find himself in the right place quite often, but Landry is the better safety in most circumstances. Let's not entirely overlook someone just because they haven't been on the field in awhile.


I agree entirely about the 5 DB scheme. It's just not happening. It won't happen.

But Leonhard is the better safety. Period.

He is smarter, stronger and a better tackler. Plus he has more big-play ability.

I always considered Landry the weak link among our DBs... Rolle took over that position this year and last... but Landry was right behind him.

Leonhard? He's my #1 now. I love Ed Reed and what Ed does, but between his injury limiting his tackling and his gambles costing us plays sometimes (they give us big plays, they cost us big plays)... I trust Leonhard. Seriously.

I honestly feel the opposite of you, Force. I think people are OVERrating Landry now that he's gone. When he was playing, he never wowed me. He never made me say "This is the guy we HAVE to have at SS." In fact, I remember in the off-season a lot of people wanting to see what other options there were.

Leonhard is a monster on our defense. An absolute beast. He reads plays and blocking schemes as well as Ray at times. Far better than Bart Scott, Suggs and others do...
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#24 ravinmaniac52

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 02:13 PM

Shouldn't the SS in our D be making plays?

I like them both and as I said, I can see them signing both of them but then again there is another guy that wants a chance to get in there. I sure Tom Zbikowski would like to get in there.
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#25 ForceEight

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 02:32 PM

QUOTE (dc. @ Jan 14 2009, 02:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
He is smarter, stronger and a better tackler.

laugh.gif No he's not!

Landry is four inches taller and 35 pounds heavier. He's head and shoulders stronger than Leonhard. He's also unquestionably a better tackler.

You are wowed by Leonhard because he plays better than he should. But that is by no means as good or better than Landry. Your perceptions are incorrect. You're mistaking his very good pass coverage and timely interceptions for superior big play ability. You forget that Landry had more interceptions in his rookie season than Leonhard has had in his entire career. Your qualification of Landry as overrated is an absolute joke.

The fact is that he's too small to play strong safety (and too slow to play CB), and below average against the run. He's agile and has a good field of vision, but he's not physically talented enough to be a long-term option at the position.

Add to this the facts that Leonhard is an unrestricted free agent who will command good money (while Landry is an RFA and will be here next year almost unquestionably), and that Zbikowski and Nakamura are both much more like Leonhard than they are Landry, and Leonhard becomes the odd man out.

Does he deserve it? Certainly not. But Landry is, simply stated, better than Leonhard as a strong safety, and is physically unique as our roster is concerned.
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#26 thundercleetz

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 04:59 PM

I am not getting into the Landry/Leonhard debate, but what does everyone think about Landry's potential mindset coming back? It is a very difficult to come back from such an injury mentally. I would be a little hesitant on Landry. I do not think Landry was put on the IR as much for his injury, but probably mental state.
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#27 SpearSrai

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 05:29 PM

QUOTE (ForceEight @ Jan 14 2009, 02:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
He's head and shoulders stronger than Leonhard. He's also unquestionably a better tackler.


It was hard for me to take the rest of your post seriously after this one. Leonhard is probably the best tackler on our team. What have you been watching?
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#28 ForceEight

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 06:17 PM

QUOTE (SpearSrai @ Jan 14 2009, 05:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It was hard for me to take the rest of your post seriously after this one. Leonhard is probably the best tackler on our team. What have you been watching?

I really don't consider important what you take seriously of mine, considering your ludicrous statement that he's the best tackler on our team. He's a fine tackler for his size, sure, but he's not the tackler Landry is.

Cleet, I'm not really worried about his mindset. He was injured because of poor technique. He put his head down while making a tackle at the knees, when the proper technique is to keep staring at what you're tackling. He'll know next time he stands in position for a tackle to keep his face facing the player until they're on the ground. He'll be fine.
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#29 SpearSrai

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 06:26 PM

QUOTE (ForceEight @ Jan 14 2009, 06:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I really don't consider important what you take seriously of mine, considering your ludicrous statement that he's the best tackler on our team. He's a fine tackler for his size, sure, but he's not the tackler Landry is.

Cleet, I'm not really worried about his mindset. He was injured because of poor technique. He put his head down while making a tackle at the knees, when the proper technique is to keep staring at what you're tackling. He'll know next time he stands in position for a tackle to keep his face facing the player until they're on the ground. He'll be fine.


You realize that you just said Landry is a better tackler than the actual best tackler on our team, and then explained how Landry tackles with poor form, right?
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#30 thundercleetz

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 06:42 PM

QUOTE (ForceEight @ Jan 14 2009, 05:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Cleet, I'm not really worried about his mindset. He was injured because of poor technique. He put his head down while making a tackle at the knees, when the proper technique is to keep staring at what you're tackling. He'll know next time he stands in position for a tackle to keep his face facing the player until they're on the ground. He'll be fine.


That is the point, the reckless abandon involves diving at the ballcarrier. Sometimes that involves bad form, but if it stops the guy, then you take it. When the ball carrier comes through the hole or around the corner, is Landry going to throw his body at him to make the tackle or is he going to think about the "proper form". As soon as you think, you are done.

QUOTE (SpearSrai @ Jan 14 2009, 05:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You realize that you just said Landry is a better tackler than the actual best tackler on our team, and then explained how Landry tackles with poor form, right?


LOL, pretty funny.


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#31 ForceEight

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 08:01 PM

QUOTE (SpearSrai @ Jan 14 2009, 06:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You realize that you just said Landry is a better tackler than the actual best tackler on our team, and then explained how Landry tackles with poor form, right?

You do realize that you're calling a 180 pound man the best tackler on our team, right?

Using poor form on a play that should've meant nothing doesn't make you a poor tackler. I don't know whether you're trapped in Landry's basement, or Leonhard's paying you, or what, but anyone with common sense can statistically and logically comprehend that Landry is a more physically skilled tackler, and a better safety.

But what do I know? You're the expert who thinks the little guy can tackle better than our half-dozen Pro Bowlers. rolleyes.gif

Cleet, I know what you mean. If he hesitates at first, that's fine. That's what training camp is for. He'll remember to be more technical in his moves, but the instincts of playing will keep him at his best talent. I'm really not at all worried. But we'll see.
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#32 colincac

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 08:07 PM

No one even came close to stating that we wanted the 4-2-5 as our Base Formation, so get your head out of your ass and read.

Secondly, as for the debate between the two. Landry and Leonhard both seem to have the knack for being in the right spot at the right time. But there is no evidence to state that Leonhard is the 'best tackler' on our team, or that Landry is 'unquestionably' better against the run then Leonhard. Leonhard can't play 'better then he should' an entire season, that's just impossible, he is what he is, and that's a good tackler and a versatile athlete who also can help us in the Punt Return game.
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#33 ForceEight

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 08:58 PM


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#34 dc.

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 09:40 PM

Force.... really???

That's all I have. Really?

I mean... I actually didn't know Leonhard was smaller (or even 'small' for the position) until two weeks ago.

He is in the right place to make plays because he is smart enough to find his way there. He knows this defense as well as Ray Lewis and Ed Reed ... and that means better than anyone else on the D.

He has been a HUGE asset in run defense, so I don't know where you get off criticizing his run defense. Not only has he made a huge number of plays at the line (thanks to reading offenses), but he has also saved our asses more than once when our "good tacklers" (Bart Scott I guess you mean?) have let the runner get by.


I don't often say this... at least not to you... but what games have you been watching?

We can disagree on attitudes of McGahee and all those kinds of things... but your analysis of Leonhard is MILES off.
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#35 dc.

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 09:42 PM

[qoute]Does he deserve it? Certainly not. But Landry is, simply stated, better than Leonhard as a strong safety, and is physically unique as our roster is concerned.[/quote]

Seriously... which Landry do you remember? Because I remember the Landry that missed tackles, made some plays, but also blew his coverage in his attempts to be like Ed Reed.

I also NEVER remember Landry having an impact on our run defense OR being decent as a blitzer. Whereas, I feel Leonhard has made huge impact on our pass rush and helped Reed get more than a few of his picks.
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#36 ForceEight

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 10:24 PM



I'm done arguing what you guys "remember" about Landry and the delusions of grandeur you've drawn up about Leonhard.

He is a solid, fast player. Absolutely. He knows a lot about our defense (comparisons to what Reed and Lewis know, though, is just as absurd as the earlier comment that he tackles better than them). However, his performance this season overrates his overall ability and talent at the position he's not well-suited to play. He's the Troy Smith to Landry's Joe Flacco.

In Buffalo, he was a free safety. With his size and speed, that's what he's best suited to play. As a strong safety, he's unable to play as much as necessary in the box and make the necessary tackles on tailbacks. He really hasn't done that this season, either.

Leonhard has one career sack in four seasons (54 games played, 20 started). Landry has four sacks (34 games played, 32 started). Leonhard has three career INTs and nine career passes defensed; Landry has 5 INTs and 12 passes defensed. Leonhard has 141 career tackles (2.61 per game), including 111 solo tackles (2.06 per game); Landry has 162 career tackles (4.76 per game), including 123 solo tackles (3.62 per game).

If I consider only Leonhard's games in which he's started, just this season (to remove better/worse defense bias), these are his numbers: 67 tackles, 53 solo (5.15 per game, 4.07 per game). One sack. One interception. Five passes defensed.

Especially considering the injury-riddled defense that Landry was part of in 2007, the personal statistics are similar. Let's look at team stats, again considering the below-average year that was 2007 for the entire team.

In 2006 and 2007, the Ravens (with Landry) combined to allow 77.0 rushing yards per game. In 2008, in Leonhard's 13 games as starter, they gave up 84.1 rushing yards per game. In 2006 and 2007, the Ravens (with Landry) allowed 188.2 and 222.3 (205.3 combined) passing yards per game. They've allowed 194.2 yards passing per game in Leonhard's 13 starts.

With healthy teams around them, Landry's stats are superior to Leonhard's. They balance out when considering how horrible last season was.

If you focus on that, as well as the fact that Landry is the prototypical strong safety while Leonhard is not, it is clear who should be our starter.

That is, unless you "remember" differently. rolleyes.gif
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#37 dc.

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 10:51 PM

I do remember differently. And it does matter. Feeling and perception are just as important as stars.

Based on numbers, Bart scott is one kind of player. Based on performance and perception he's another.

Better example: joe flacco. His numbers and what we watch say very different things.

Also remove the giants huge rushing day and the teams defensive performance is as good as when landry was here. And let's not forget that leonhard was actually the one to make the tackles on several of the giants biggest plays- if not for him it would have been how much worse?
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#38 ForceEight

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 11:27 PM

QUOTE (dc. @ Jan 14 2009, 10:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I do remember differently. And it does matter. Feeling and perception are just as important as stars.

Based on numbers, Bart scott is one kind of player. Based on performance and perception he's another.

Better example: joe flacco. His numbers and what we watch say very different things.

Also remove the giants huge rushing day and the teams defensive performance is as good as when landry was here. And let's not forget that leonhard was actually the one to make the tackles on several of the giants biggest plays- if not for him it would have been how much worse?

When your perception is based on makes the difference. Your perception is based on emotions and television. The stats state a different opinion.

Your Flacco example is excellent. His numbers state that he's an average NFL QB (thus far), at best. Our emotions tell us that he's very good. Why? Because we haven't had someone of even his talent for years. The statistics tell us how he really did, but our emotions get in the way.

The statistics tell us that Landry is a better player. But the gritty and unexpected effort of Leonhard tells us that he's a much better player than the facts do.

If you want to discount huge rushing games for Leonhard, why doesn't Landry get the same benefit? You're digging a hole out here in the middle of nowhere, and it's getting you just that. Nowhere.

Landry is the better strong safety.
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#39 dc.

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 11:39 PM

see, but there you go deciding what my perception is for me.

my perception of flacco as a good qb is not skewed by the fact that i havent seen a good qb in a long time... ive seen many come in and dominate my team.

my perception is not skewed.

the stats simply dont tell the whole story.

flacco might be putting up average numbers... but he makes meaningful plays... he fails to make big mistakes... etc etc... intangibles that are uncounted for.


...

as for discounting big games against leonhard... it was a one time example. i was simply saying that remove a single 300 yard rushing day by one team (one game out of just 13 starts) and you have a very different picture of this teams rushing defense. consider it an aside.


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#40 dc.

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 11:43 PM

QUOTE
With healthy teams around them, Landry's stats are superior to Leonhard's. They balance out when considering how horrible last season was.


What are you calling healthy??

Leonhard playing without Gregg, McAlister, a half-injured Reed, the oft-injured Rolle and Washington?


Bottom line... we're not going to agree.

I said just days after Landry was hurt, when we all thought he might come back, that the defense actually looked better with Leonhard in it. I stand by that point.

I stand by the assertion that - aside from Ray Lewis - Jim Leonhard has been this team's best tackler this season. He misses fewer tackles. He is in on plenty of hits.

I stand by my assertion that Leonhard, because he knows the schemes so well, is not lucky to be in on plays... he's putting himself in that position. Much the way good players do. And that Landry, much like Reed but with less success, used to take risks that cost this team much more than they every gained.

...

Bottom line... If Leonhard is so average, why are you asserting that other teams are going to pay top dollar for him? Are you saying that other teams and GMs are too dense to see what is so plain to you?
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