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How will Leonard / Landry pan out next season ?


moonman

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I am not getting into the Landry/Leonhard debate, but what does everyone think about Landry's potential mindset coming back? It is a very difficult to come back from such an injury mentally. I would be a little hesitant on Landry. I do not think Landry was put on the IR as much for his injury, but probably mental state.

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He's head and shoulders stronger than Leonhard. He's also unquestionably a better tackler.

 

It was hard for me to take the rest of your post seriously after this one. Leonhard is probably the best tackler on our team. What have you been watching?

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It was hard for me to take the rest of your post seriously after this one. Leonhard is probably the best tackler on our team. What have you been watching?

I really don't consider important what you take seriously of mine, considering your ludicrous statement that he's the best tackler on our team. He's a fine tackler for his size, sure, but he's not the tackler Landry is.

 

Cleet, I'm not really worried about his mindset. He was injured because of poor technique. He put his head down while making a tackle at the knees, when the proper technique is to keep staring at what you're tackling. He'll know next time he stands in position for a tackle to keep his face facing the player until they're on the ground. He'll be fine.

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I really don't consider important what you take seriously of mine, considering your ludicrous statement that he's the best tackler on our team. He's a fine tackler for his size, sure, but he's not the tackler Landry is.

 

Cleet, I'm not really worried about his mindset. He was injured because of poor technique. He put his head down while making a tackle at the knees, when the proper technique is to keep staring at what you're tackling. He'll know next time he stands in position for a tackle to keep his face facing the player until they're on the ground. He'll be fine.

 

You realize that you just said Landry is a better tackler than the actual best tackler on our team, and then explained how Landry tackles with poor form, right?

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Cleet, I'm not really worried about his mindset. He was injured because of poor technique. He put his head down while making a tackle at the knees, when the proper technique is to keep staring at what you're tackling. He'll know next time he stands in position for a tackle to keep his face facing the player until they're on the ground. He'll be fine.

 

That is the point, the reckless abandon involves diving at the ballcarrier. Sometimes that involves bad form, but if it stops the guy, then you take it. When the ball carrier comes through the hole or around the corner, is Landry going to throw his body at him to make the tackle or is he going to think about the "proper form". As soon as you think, you are done.

 

You realize that you just said Landry is a better tackler than the actual best tackler on our team, and then explained how Landry tackles with poor form, right?

 

LOL, pretty funny.

 

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You realize that you just said Landry is a better tackler than the actual best tackler on our team, and then explained how Landry tackles with poor form, right?

You do realize that you're calling a 180 pound man the best tackler on our team, right?

 

Using poor form on a play that should've meant nothing doesn't make you a poor tackler. I don't know whether you're trapped in Landry's basement, or Leonhard's paying you, or what, but anyone with common sense can statistically and logically comprehend that Landry is a more physically skilled tackler, and a better safety.

 

But what do I know? You're the expert who thinks the little guy can tackle better than our half-dozen Pro Bowlers. :rolleyes:

 

Cleet, I know what you mean. If he hesitates at first, that's fine. That's what training camp is for. He'll remember to be more technical in his moves, but the instincts of playing will keep him at his best talent. I'm really not at all worried. But we'll see.

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No one even came close to stating that we wanted the 4-2-5 as our Base Formation, so get your head out of your ass and read.

 

Secondly, as for the debate between the two. Landry and Leonhard both seem to have the knack for being in the right spot at the right time. But there is no evidence to state that Leonhard is the 'best tackler' on our team, or that Landry is 'unquestionably' better against the run then Leonhard. Leonhard can't play 'better then he should' an entire season, that's just impossible, he is what he is, and that's a good tackler and a versatile athlete who also can help us in the Punt Return game.

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Force.... really???

 

That's all I have. Really?

 

I mean... I actually didn't know Leonhard was smaller (or even 'small' for the position) until two weeks ago.

 

He is in the right place to make plays because he is smart enough to find his way there. He knows this defense as well as Ray Lewis and Ed Reed ... and that means better than anyone else on the D.

 

He has been a HUGE asset in run defense, so I don't know where you get off criticizing his run defense. Not only has he made a huge number of plays at the line (thanks to reading offenses), but he has also saved our asses more than once when our "good tacklers" (Bart Scott I guess you mean?) have let the runner get by.

 

 

I don't often say this... at least not to you... but what games have you been watching?

 

We can disagree on attitudes of McGahee and all those kinds of things... but your analysis of Leonhard is MILES off.

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[qoute]Does he deserve it? Certainly not. But Landry is, simply stated, better than Leonhard as a strong safety, and is physically unique as our roster is concerned.

 

Seriously... which Landry do you remember? Because I remember the Landry that missed tackles, made some plays, but also blew his coverage in his attempts to be like Ed Reed.

 

I also NEVER remember Landry having an impact on our run defense OR being decent as a blitzer. Whereas, I feel Leonhard has made huge impact on our pass rush and helped Reed get more than a few of his picks.

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jerrynq5.gif

 

I'm done arguing what you guys "remember" about Landry and the delusions of grandeur you've drawn up about Leonhard.

 

He is a solid, fast player. Absolutely. He knows a lot about our defense (comparisons to what Reed and Lewis know, though, is just as absurd as the earlier comment that he tackles better than them). However, his performance this season overrates his overall ability and talent at the position he's not well-suited to play. He's the Troy Smith to Landry's Joe Flacco.

 

In Buffalo, he was a free safety. With his size and speed, that's what he's best suited to play. As a strong safety, he's unable to play as much as necessary in the box and make the necessary tackles on tailbacks. He really hasn't done that this season, either.

 

Leonhard has one career sack in four seasons (54 games played, 20 started). Landry has four sacks (34 games played, 32 started). Leonhard has three career INTs and nine career passes defensed; Landry has 5 INTs and 12 passes defensed. Leonhard has 141 career tackles (2.61 per game), including 111 solo tackles (2.06 per game); Landry has 162 career tackles (4.76 per game), including 123 solo tackles (3.62 per game).

 

If I consider only Leonhard's games in which he's started, just this season (to remove better/worse defense bias), these are his numbers: 67 tackles, 53 solo (5.15 per game, 4.07 per game). One sack. One interception. Five passes defensed.

 

Especially considering the injury-riddled defense that Landry was part of in 2007, the personal statistics are similar. Let's look at team stats, again considering the below-average year that was 2007 for the entire team.

 

In 2006 and 2007, the Ravens (with Landry) combined to allow 77.0 rushing yards per game. In 2008, in Leonhard's 13 games as starter, they gave up 84.1 rushing yards per game. In 2006 and 2007, the Ravens (with Landry) allowed 188.2 and 222.3 (205.3 combined) passing yards per game. They've allowed 194.2 yards passing per game in Leonhard's 13 starts.

 

With healthy teams around them, Landry's stats are superior to Leonhard's. They balance out when considering how horrible last season was.

 

If you focus on that, as well as the fact that Landry is the prototypical strong safety while Leonhard is not, it is clear who should be our starter.

 

That is, unless you "remember" differently. :rolleyes:

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I do remember differently. And it does matter. Feeling and perception are just as important as stars.

 

Based on numbers, Bart scott is one kind of player. Based on performance and perception he's another.

 

Better example: joe flacco. His numbers and what we watch say very different things.

 

Also remove the giants huge rushing day and the teams defensive performance is as good as when landry was here. And let's not forget that leonhard was actually the one to make the tackles on several of the giants biggest plays- if not for him it would have been how much worse?

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I do remember differently. And it does matter. Feeling and perception are just as important as stars.

 

Based on numbers, Bart scott is one kind of player. Based on performance and perception he's another.

 

Better example: joe flacco. His numbers and what we watch say very different things.

 

Also remove the giants huge rushing day and the teams defensive performance is as good as when landry was here. And let's not forget that leonhard was actually the one to make the tackles on several of the giants biggest plays- if not for him it would have been how much worse?

When your perception is based on makes the difference. Your perception is based on emotions and television. The stats state a different opinion.

 

Your Flacco example is excellent. His numbers state that he's an average NFL QB (thus far), at best. Our emotions tell us that he's very good. Why? Because we haven't had someone of even his talent for years. The statistics tell us how he really did, but our emotions get in the way.

 

The statistics tell us that Landry is a better player. But the gritty and unexpected effort of Leonhard tells us that he's a much better player than the facts do.

 

If you want to discount huge rushing games for Leonhard, why doesn't Landry get the same benefit? You're digging a hole out here in the middle of nowhere, and it's getting you just that. Nowhere.

 

Landry is the better strong safety.

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see, but there you go deciding what my perception is for me.

 

my perception of flacco as a good qb is not skewed by the fact that i havent seen a good qb in a long time... ive seen many come in and dominate my team.

 

my perception is not skewed.

 

the stats simply dont tell the whole story.

 

flacco might be putting up average numbers... but he makes meaningful plays... he fails to make big mistakes... etc etc... intangibles that are uncounted for.

 

 

...

 

as for discounting big games against leonhard... it was a one time example. i was simply saying that remove a single 300 yard rushing day by one team (one game out of just 13 starts) and you have a very different picture of this teams rushing defense. consider it an aside.

 

 

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With healthy teams around them, Landry's stats are superior to Leonhard's. They balance out when considering how horrible last season was.

 

What are you calling healthy??

 

Leonhard playing without Gregg, McAlister, a half-injured Reed, the oft-injured Rolle and Washington?

 

 

Bottom line... we're not going to agree.

 

I said just days after Landry was hurt, when we all thought he might come back, that the defense actually looked better with Leonhard in it. I stand by that point.

 

I stand by the assertion that - aside from Ray Lewis - Jim Leonhard has been this team's best tackler this season. He misses fewer tackles. He is in on plenty of hits.

 

I stand by my assertion that Leonhard, because he knows the schemes so well, is not lucky to be in on plays... he's putting himself in that position. Much the way good players do. And that Landry, much like Reed but with less success, used to take risks that cost this team much more than they every gained.

 

...

 

Bottom line... If Leonhard is so average, why are you asserting that other teams are going to pay top dollar for him? Are you saying that other teams and GMs are too dense to see what is so plain to you?

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flacco might be putting up average numbers... but he makes meaningful plays... he fails to make big mistakes... etc etc... intangibles that are uncounted for.

 

I don't see Joe coming out and winning games at this time. I know he drove them down the field for the winning field goal but he does make meaningful plays. Any time you can throw the ball deep like that, and just not to throw but to make plays, you change the way the D comes at you.

 

How did we get to Joe?

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How did we get to Joe...

 

Many posters: I like Leonhard.

 

Force: I like Landry.

 

Others: Leonhard has been better.

 

Force: Here are stats that show Landry has done more.

 

Me: Stats don't mean a lot. Joe's stats say one thing. But we see something very different on the field.

 

----

 

I agree with you. Joe isn't winning games. But he is playing better than his numbers. He is not turning the ball over. Not taking sacks. Not making bad decisions. And he is managing the offense. He is making hundreds, thousands, however many mini-plays and decisions and moves that are affecting the performance of the entire offense. And very little of it shows up in a stats book.

 

Defenders have even fewer stats than QBs that show up in the box score... and yet we are supposed to judge the likes of Leonhard and Landry against each other on those numbers alone?

 

One more example... many here believe Haloti Ngata should be in the Pro Bowl. Statistically, he was outperformed (by miles even) by Haynesworth, Rogers, Hampton and others. But yet so many of us seem to know how much better Ngata was.

 

Now, I don't entirely agree with the Ngata evaluations. But I do know this... his contributions to THIS defense and his performance, the performance by which he should be graded, does not show up in the stat column on Monday morning.

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see, but there you go deciding what my perception is for me.

 

my perception of flacco as a good qb is not skewed by the fact that i havent seen a good qb in a long time... ive seen many come in and dominate my team.

 

my perception is not skewed.

 

the stats simply dont tell the whole story.

 

flacco might be putting up average numbers... but he makes meaningful plays... he fails to make big mistakes... etc etc... intangibles that are uncounted for

I'm not talking about your perception. I'm talking about perception in general. Your perception is skewed, because as far as this argument is concerned (because Leonhard isn't a feared presence or a renowned motivator), statistics do tell the whole story.

 

Those "intangibles" you say aren't accounted for are more than accounted for. They're called interceptions, fumbles, sacks, etc. Those are the factors involved as to, right now, classifying Flacco as an average quarterback.

 

Those are accounted for by the statistics Landry and Leonhard both accumulate. How many passes defensed and interceptions does Leonhard have when the ball is thrown in his direction? How many of his tackles were inside the box? How many were 25 yards from the line of scrimmage?

 

Everything is accounted for, as far as the comparison is concerned. Presence included, Landry comes out the winner.

 

Back to your mention of money, I never said that he'd command top dollar. Quoting myself, I said that he'd make "good money." And he will. He's a good, solid player who deserves a starting job in this league. However, Dawan Landry is a better player, and has the starting job here in Baltimore.

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I'm not talking about your perception. I'm talking about perception in general. Your perception is skewed, because as far as this argument is concerned (because Leonhard isn't a feared presence or a renowned motivator), statistics do tell the whole story.

 

Those "intangibles" you say aren't accounted for are more than accounted for. They're called interceptions, fumbles, sacks, etc. Those are the factors involved as to, right now, classifying Flacco as an average quarterback.

 

Those are accounted for by the statistics Landry and Leonhard both accumulate. How many passes defensed and interceptions does Leonhard have when the ball is thrown in his direction? How many of his tackles were inside the box? How many were 25 yards from the line of scrimmage?

 

See, and here is where you are simply wrong. And you know it.

 

You don't have to be feared or a leader to have intangibles. There are intangibles everywhere.

 

Which stat accounts for the fact that Joe Flacco is aided by Jason Brown as his center - as opposed to the one and only Mike Flynn with a great propensity for stepping on a QBs feet?

 

Which stat accounts for Flacco making quality reads? Intentionally throwing the ball away? Avoiding a sack but still not completing a pass? Keeping a play alive for one-half second longer to let Derrick Mason get open? Which stats show us that Flacco made the right audible? Called the right blocking scheme at the line? Recognized the defensive coverage?

 

Defenders are judged on even less than QBs. They have to be. Tackles aren't even an official stat kept by the league. There's not an official definition of a tackle for the statisticians... so how do we know when Leonhard is getting his due and when Ray's late jump is getting credit? And which stat accounts for the fact that by reading the run and blitzing it, Leonhard forced a runner back inside... to the waiting arms of Ngata or Lewis? And which stat shows us that had Leonhard not made this tackle or that tackle that the running back would have scored?

 

You're full of it, Ken. You know it. The stats are merely a piece of the puzzle. Especially in football. In baseball, you might have an argument... but not here.

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By the way... in case you aren't getting it... my point is simple: Leonhard makes everyone around him better. Much the way we credit Lewis and Flacco. The defense as a whole functions better with Leonhard in the mix. Regardless of the personal stats.

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By the way... in case you aren't getting it... my point is simple: Leonhard makes everyone around him better. Much the way we credit Lewis and Flacco. The defense as a whole functions better with Leonhard in the mix. Regardless of the personal stats.

I don't know about Jim making others better, he is a good player, a Ravens type of player. I think he and the other kid are like Ed Hartwell and a few others that have passed through. The Ravens make them look better.

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By the way... in case you aren't getting it... my point is simple: Leonhard makes everyone around him better. Much the way we credit Lewis and Flacco. The defense as a whole functions better with Leonhard in the mix. Regardless of the personal stats.

:lol:! Based on what?

 

The simple fact is that my argument is based on tangible and scientific knowledge. Yours is based on something that, not only can't be proven, but doesn't even exist.

 

How does Leonhard make the team better? Even if he did, how can you possibly argue that Landry doesn't? Oh, because you just "get that feeling"?

 

Landry is statistically and prototypically better than Leonhard. The best argument you can come up with for Leonhard is that he "makes the team better," when the team is actually doing worse than when Landry was the starter?

 

Yeah, I'm the one that's full of it. :lol:

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No. You're full of it because you know that the numbers never tell the full story... nor anything close to it.

 

If they did tell the whole story, how exactly do you justify your support of Kyle Boller for a full five seasons?

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