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How will Leonard / Landry pan out next season ?


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#41 ravinmaniac52

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 11:51 PM

QUOTE
flacco might be putting up average numbers... but he makes meaningful plays... he fails to make big mistakes... etc etc... intangibles that are uncounted for.


I don't see Joe coming out and winning games at this time. I know he drove them down the field for the winning field goal but he does make meaningful plays. Any time you can throw the ball deep like that, and just not to throw but to make plays, you change the way the D comes at you.

How did we get to Joe?
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#42 dc.

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 11:56 PM

How did we get to Joe...

Many posters: I like Leonhard.

Force: I like Landry.

Others: Leonhard has been better.

Force: Here are stats that show Landry has done more.

Me: Stats don't mean a lot. Joe's stats say one thing. But we see something very different on the field.

----

I agree with you. Joe isn't winning games. But he is playing better than his numbers. He is not turning the ball over. Not taking sacks. Not making bad decisions. And he is managing the offense. He is making hundreds, thousands, however many mini-plays and decisions and moves that are affecting the performance of the entire offense. And very little of it shows up in a stats book.

Defenders have even fewer stats than QBs that show up in the box score... and yet we are supposed to judge the likes of Leonhard and Landry against each other on those numbers alone?

One more example... many here believe Haloti Ngata should be in the Pro Bowl. Statistically, he was outperformed (by miles even) by Haynesworth, Rogers, Hampton and others. But yet so many of us seem to know how much better Ngata was.

Now, I don't entirely agree with the Ngata evaluations. But I do know this... his contributions to THIS defense and his performance, the performance by which he should be graded, does not show up in the stat column on Monday morning.
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#43 ForceEight

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 12:06 AM

QUOTE (dc. @ Jan 14 2009, 11:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
see, but there you go deciding what my perception is for me.

my perception of flacco as a good qb is not skewed by the fact that i havent seen a good qb in a long time... ive seen many come in and dominate my team.

my perception is not skewed.

the stats simply dont tell the whole story.

flacco might be putting up average numbers... but he makes meaningful plays... he fails to make big mistakes... etc etc... intangibles that are uncounted for

I'm not talking about your perception. I'm talking about perception in general. Your perception is skewed, because as far as this argument is concerned (because Leonhard isn't a feared presence or a renowned motivator), statistics do tell the whole story.

Those "intangibles" you say aren't accounted for are more than accounted for. They're called interceptions, fumbles, sacks, etc. Those are the factors involved as to, right now, classifying Flacco as an average quarterback.

Those are accounted for by the statistics Landry and Leonhard both accumulate. How many passes defensed and interceptions does Leonhard have when the ball is thrown in his direction? How many of his tackles were inside the box? How many were 25 yards from the line of scrimmage?

Everything is accounted for, as far as the comparison is concerned. Presence included, Landry comes out the winner.

Back to your mention of money, I never said that he'd command top dollar. Quoting myself, I said that he'd make "good money." And he will. He's a good, solid player who deserves a starting job in this league. However, Dawan Landry is a better player, and has the starting job here in Baltimore.
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#44 dc.

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 12:18 AM

QUOTE
I'm not talking about your perception. I'm talking about perception in general. Your perception is skewed, because as far as this argument is concerned (because Leonhard isn't a feared presence or a renowned motivator), statistics do tell the whole story.

Those "intangibles" you say aren't accounted for are more than accounted for. They're called interceptions, fumbles, sacks, etc. Those are the factors involved as to, right now, classifying Flacco as an average quarterback.

Those are accounted for by the statistics Landry and Leonhard both accumulate. How many passes defensed and interceptions does Leonhard have when the ball is thrown in his direction? How many of his tackles were inside the box? How many were 25 yards from the line of scrimmage?


See, and here is where you are simply wrong. And you know it.

You don't have to be feared or a leader to have intangibles. There are intangibles everywhere.

Which stat accounts for the fact that Joe Flacco is aided by Jason Brown as his center - as opposed to the one and only Mike Flynn with a great propensity for stepping on a QBs feet?

Which stat accounts for Flacco making quality reads? Intentionally throwing the ball away? Avoiding a sack but still not completing a pass? Keeping a play alive for one-half second longer to let Derrick Mason get open? Which stats show us that Flacco made the right audible? Called the right blocking scheme at the line? Recognized the defensive coverage?

Defenders are judged on even less than QBs. They have to be. Tackles aren't even an official stat kept by the league. There's not an official definition of a tackle for the statisticians... so how do we know when Leonhard is getting his due and when Ray's late jump is getting credit? And which stat accounts for the fact that by reading the run and blitzing it, Leonhard forced a runner back inside... to the waiting arms of Ngata or Lewis? And which stat shows us that had Leonhard not made this tackle or that tackle that the running back would have scored?

You're full of it, Ken. You know it. The stats are merely a piece of the puzzle. Especially in football. In baseball, you might have an argument... but not here.
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#45 dc.

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 12:19 AM

By the way... in case you aren't getting it... my point is simple: Leonhard makes everyone around him better. Much the way we credit Lewis and Flacco. The defense as a whole functions better with Leonhard in the mix. Regardless of the personal stats.
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#46 ravinmaniac52

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 12:24 AM

QUOTE (dc. @ Jan 15 2009, 12:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
By the way... in case you aren't getting it... my point is simple: Leonhard makes everyone around him better. Much the way we credit Lewis and Flacco. The defense as a whole functions better with Leonhard in the mix. Regardless of the personal stats.

I don't know about Jim making others better, he is a good player, a Ravens type of player. I think he and the other kid are like Ed Hartwell and a few others that have passed through. The Ravens make them look better.
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#47 ForceEight

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 12:43 AM

QUOTE (dc. @ Jan 15 2009, 12:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
By the way... in case you aren't getting it... my point is simple: Leonhard makes everyone around him better. Much the way we credit Lewis and Flacco. The defense as a whole functions better with Leonhard in the mix. Regardless of the personal stats.

laugh.gif! Based on what?

The simple fact is that my argument is based on tangible and scientific knowledge. Yours is based on something that, not only can't be proven, but doesn't even exist.

How does Leonhard make the team better? Even if he did, how can you possibly argue that Landry doesn't? Oh, because you just "get that feeling"?

Landry is statistically and prototypically better than Leonhard. The best argument you can come up with for Leonhard is that he "makes the team better," when the team is actually doing worse than when Landry was the starter?

Yeah, I'm the one that's full of it. laugh.gif
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#48 dc.

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 12:53 AM

No. You're full of it because you know that the numbers never tell the full story... nor anything close to it.

If they did tell the whole story, how exactly do you justify your support of Kyle Boller for a full five seasons?
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#49 ForceEight

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 01:22 AM

I didn't say they told the full story. However, I'd love for you to provide your evidence for the rest of the story. Oh, wait, you "have that feeling."

I never backed up my support of Boller with statistical evidence. laugh.gif
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#50 SpearSrai

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 03:14 AM

In conclusion, Leonhard is the better player, and the only person who disagrees supported Kyle Boller for 5 seasons. I think we're done here.
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#51 cmacarolle21

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 08:20 AM

I don't think that Leonhard is better then landry I think even though they play the same position they are different players. I have the feeling Leonhard plays with more intensity but, I think Landry is more talented. I'd like to see the 5 DB formation =]
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"These people can not score on us they cant move even move the ball you know why because we got each other put some smiles on your faces its a 60 minute ball game."- Ray Lewis

#52 colincac

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 10:08 AM

QUOTE (cmacarolle21 @ Jan 15 2009, 08:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't think that Leonhard is better then landry I think even though they play the same position they are different players. I have the feeling Leonhard plays with more intensity but, I think Landry is more talented. I'd like to see the 5 DB formation =]



Now that's how we end this argument. tongue.gif
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#53 dc.

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 10:46 AM

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I didn't say they told the full story. However, I'd love for you to provide your evidence for the rest of the story. Oh, wait, you "have that feeling."


Actually... here's how I'll end it...

How many games did you tell me you missed this season again? 7? 9? More than that?

I missed two - and saw at least half of both of them.

It's not about a feeling... it's about what I have seen on the field from Leonhard. Actually seeing something makes it more than "just a feeling."

Meanwhile... I could continue and go into the fact that "prototypically' Ray Lewis was too small for his position. And that, because tackles are not an official league stat, Ray's numbers say he is far from the best defensive player of the last 10 years. And yet, that is something I think we could all disagree with because sacks, interceptions and fumbles don't solely define a middle linebacker.
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#54 5to85for6

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 10:57 AM

Landry is a stud, he was recieving such high praise from the coaching staff all through offseason up until he was injured for being the most motivated gym rat on the team. Odds are Leonhard is out just because wee dont have money for him. its a shame bc he is a huge part of this run we are having.

I would love to see a 5 db formation but i know that it will not be our base D. maybr dawan can put on some mass and we could let him play LB. is that idea so farfetched?
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#55 cmacarolle21

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 11:09 AM

He'd have to put on what 15-20 pounds. I don't know how far fetched it is; would sound weird to be just because I don't think many of us have thought of that before. Essentially what Landry would be going if we had a 5 DB formation would be the same as a linebacker so I wouldn't consider it too far fetched. Maybe he should find a nice medium gain 10 pounds if were to do a 5 DB formation. Leonhard is under contract isn't he I don't think we have to worry about him going in free agency.
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"These people can not score on us they cant move even move the ball you know why because we got each other put some smiles on your faces its a 60 minute ball game."- Ray Lewis

#56 ForceEight

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 04:18 PM

QUOTE (dc. @ Jan 15 2009, 10:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Actually... here's how I'll end it...

How many games did you tell me you missed this season again? 7? 9? More than that?

I missed two - and saw at least half of both of them.

It's not about a feeling... it's about what I have seen on the field from Leonhard. Actually seeing something makes it more than "just a feeling."

Meanwhile... I could continue and go into the fact that "prototypically' Ray Lewis was too small for his position. And that, because tackles are not an official league stat, Ray's numbers say he is far from the best defensive player of the last 10 years. And yet, that is something I think we could all disagree with because sacks, interceptions and fumbles don't solely define a middle linebacker.

I missed seven games at original broadcast, but watched all but one of them sometime later during the week.

Meanwhile, if you honestly want to use the greatest defensive player in NFL history as the atypical example, feel free, but we all know that there are prototypical sizes for each position for a reason. You are completely incorrect in stating that Lewis' numbers say he's far from the best; that's simply stretching your argument way too far, buddy. He consistently is in the top ten for tackles, and his sacks and interceptions bring further merit to his skill.

That's not my argument, though, and it's not yours. You are suggesting that Leonhard has some type of fundamental motivation or emotional skill that makes the players around him better. You're also suggesting, then, that Landry doesn't. And that you're somehow able to distinguish this when no one else can. Ignore all the other thing I said earlier, and prove to me how this is the case.

Prove to me how Leonhard makes the players around him better, and how Landry doesn't. You certainly can't use statistics as reasoning, here, because they tell a different tale.

I look forward to your reply.
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#57 thundercleetz

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 04:33 PM

QUOTE (ForceEight @ Jan 15 2009, 03:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I missed seven games at original broadcast, but watched all but one of them sometime later during the week.

Meanwhile, if you honestly want to use the greatest defensive player in NFL history as the atypical example, feel free, but we all know that there are prototypical sizes for each position for a reason. You are completely incorrect in stating that Lewis' numbers say he's far from the best; that's simply stretching your argument way too far, buddy. He consistently is in the top ten for tackles, and his sacks and interceptions bring further merit to his skill.

That's not my argument, though, and it's not yours. You are suggesting that Leonhard has some type of fundamental motivation or emotional skill that makes the players around him better. You're also suggesting, then, that Landry doesn't. And that you're somehow able to distinguish this when no one else can. Ignore all the other thing I said earlier, and prove to me how this is the case.

Prove to me how Leonhard makes the players around him better, and how Landry doesn't. You certainly can't use statistics as reasoning, here, because they tell a different tale.

I look forward to your reply.


PWND!!! Sike, I didn't read anything but the first and last sentence. smile.gif
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#58 SpearSrai

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 04:58 PM

Apparently James Harrison and London Fletcher aren't the physical prototype either. I wonder if they know this.
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#59 dc.

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 06:59 PM

Well first, Ray is not prototypical in his size for an ILB. He was devalued at draft time- much like Emmitt Smith- because he was too small.

And did you not read the part where I mentioned that tackles are not a real star - really they aren't. And outside of tackles, ray's numbers are not enough to make him best player.

Meanwhile, my argument was not that Leonhard makes people better through motivation or emotion, but through his play. His ability to complete his assignment, beat his man, and fill gaps makes everyone else better - and look better.
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Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster too. And when you stare into the abyss, the abyss stares also into you.

#60 yagersports

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 07:03 PM

Wow, I can't believe this thread has life just a few days before we play in the AFC Championship game! Comon, offseason talk is for Browns and Bengals fans! wink.gif haha
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