I'm tired of draft speculating already....

[SpearSrai]

Let's say, for grins and giggles, that we can come out of this draft with one star and a bunch of role players. Rather than go through the list of available players and their potential, I think we can narrow down the positions we're targeting to receiver, tight end, pass-rusher, and corner.

 

So if you could have one, and ONLY one, guaranteed, bona-fide star from this draft, would you rather it be a:

 

*A big-play, physical wideout like a Brandon Marshall/Andre Johnson,

 

*A big, fast tight-end with good hands like Antonio Gates/Dallas Clark,

 

*A high-motor pass-rusher like Dwight Freeney/DaMarcus Ware, or

 

*A man-to-man shutdown corner like a Revis/Asomugha?

*************************************************************

 

Round and value doesn't come into play here. You just get one star, and average-or-worse players at the other positions.

 

All are tempting options, but I personally would take the pass-rusher. A star pass-rusher can disrupt an entire offense.

[ForceEight]

I think it's between the receiver and the corner. A receiver that reliable makes an offense leaps and bounds better (Andre and the Texans are a great example), and a corner that strong shuts down his entire side of the field.

 

For the sake of balance and what's on the roster right now, I think you have to take the receiver.

[SpearSrai]

I think it's between the receiver and the corner. A receiver that reliable makes an offense leaps and bounds better (Andre and the Texans are a great example), and a corner that strong shuts down his entire side of the field.

 

For the sake of balance and what's on the roster right now, I think you have to take the receiver.

 

Can't you say the same about a pass-rusher like (pre-steroid) Shawn Merriman, and (going back a few years) Bruce Smith and Lawrence Taylor? Those guys can shut down not only half of a field, but essentially the entire 5 and 7-second drop. An entire offense was constructed specifically to counter this type of player, and a position (left tackle) became 10 times more valuable because of it.

[ForceEight]

Can't you say the same about a pass-rusher like (pre-steroid) Shawn Merriman, and (going back a few years) Bruce Smith and Lawrence Taylor? Those guys can shut down not only half of a field, but essentially the entire 5 and 7-second drop. An entire offense was constructed specifically to counter this type of player, and a position (left tackle) became 10 times more valuable because of it.

You're absolutely right, but I don't think you could say that any pass rusher, at least right now, means as much to his team as Fitzgerald, Andre Johnson, etc., and Revis, Asomugha, and such.

 

Who are the best pass rushers in the league now? Freeney and Allen would be most folks' top two, I think. However, do you think either player is nearly as valuable to their team as any of the best receivers/cornerbacks? The Texans and Schaub are scrubs without Andre, Kurt Warner is average and the Cards are terrible without Fitzgerald, the Jets' top defense is average without Revis, and the Raiders are a UFL team without Asomugha.

[SpearSrai]

You're absolutely right, but I don't think you could say that any pass rusher, at least right now, means as much to his team as Fitzgerald, Andre Johnson, etc., and Revis, Asomugha, and such.

 

Who are the best pass rushers in the league now? Freeney and Allen would be most folks' top two, I think. However, do you think either player is nearly as valuable to their team as any of the best receivers/cornerbacks? The Texans and Schaub are scrubs without Andre, Kurt Warner is average and the Cards are terrible without Fitzgerald, the Jets' top defense is average without Revis, and the Raiders are a UFL team without Asomugha.

 

An uninjured Freeney was certainly as valuable to the Colts defense as Asomugha is to the Raiders. (Ask Jonathan Ogden.) And it's not like the Raiders are setting the world on fire WITH their shutdown corner. The Chargers WITH a juiced-up Shawne Merriman were much stronger than when they lost him...their defense actually became one of the most porous, even with all of the first-rounders they've spent on corners. Remember how huge Jevon Kearse and Julius Peppers were? How about a pass-rusher like Mario Williams? (Seriously, how about him? Because I never get to watch Texans games.) Then you have a guy you could consider a pass-rusher like Albert Haynesworth. The Titans defense looked absolutely terrible when they took the field at the beginning of the year without their star pass-rusher. And let's not forget how dominating Osi Umenyiora was just a few years ago. The guy was unstoppable.

 

Make no mistake... I realize how great it is to have a superstar receiver, but he's just one piece of the puzzle too. Without a competent QB, it means nothing. Plenty of highly-touted receivers have been mediocre in bad systems and with bad QB's. So you could make an argument that the pass-rusher can affect a game, by himself, easier than the receiver can.

 

And if you DO want to talk about supporting players (like a good quarterback), then give me a competent pass-rusher on the other side (Robert Mathis?) and my pass-rush will be even more dominant.

 

(And to your other points, the Cardinals with Breaston, Boldin, and Warner would not be terrible. The Texans still ARE pretty bad, even with Andre, but I do think Schaub is a good quarterback, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say he'd find another weapon. And the Jets defense would still be good because of the scheme they use. Rex's blitzing scheme will always have them in the top 10 just because most quarterbacks aren't good enough to react to it, but a top QB will always pick it apart.)

[thundercleetz]

I think you take the receiver based upon what that receiver would do for Joe Flacco now and in the long-term perspective of him becoming a better QB. Yes, getting a pass rusher would improve our corner play, but who are our corners? Fabian Washington, Dom Foxworth, and Chris Carr? These guys are limited by their potential, no matter how good the pass rush in front of them is. Flacco on the other hand has almost unlimited potential. Get him a number one receiver that he is comfortable throwing to and maybe he starts throwing the ball over the middle more, making adjustments at the line, or practices his deep ball more often. Over time, these are skills that Flacco could use to make other receivers (such as Clayton) become better than they actually are. So it would go from a number one receiver making Flacco a better QB, to Flacco becoming more confident and polished in his abilities by throwing to such a receiver that he is then able to use those talents with other lesser skilled receivers.

 

We have seen these last few seasons that this is a QB's league. The better QB you have, the better chance you are at winning. The better we can get Flacco the quickest, the best chance we have at winning down the road. Getting a good pass rusher is simply a plug in, there is not much in terms of development or timing. Getting a great QB requires time, patience, and development. Adding a #1 WR would greatly boost this process. Get the receiver now, get the pass rusher next.

[SpearSrai]

I think you take the receiver based upon what that receiver would do for Joe Flacco now and in the long-term perspective of him becoming a better QB. Yes, getting a pass rusher would improve our corner play, but who are our corners? Fabian Washington, Dom Foxworth, and Chris Carr? These guys are limited by their potential, no matter how good the pass rush in front of them is. Flacco on the other hand has almost unlimited potential. Get him a number one receiver that he is comfortable throwing to and maybe he starts throwing the ball over the middle more, making adjustments at the line, or practices his deep ball more often. Over time, these are skills that Flacco could use to make other receivers (such as Clayton) become better than they actually are. So it would go from a number one receiver making Flacco a better QB, to Flacco becoming more confident and polished in his abilities by throwing to such a receiver that he is then able to use those talents with other lesser skilled receivers.

 

We have seen these last few seasons that this is a QB's league. The better QB you have, the better chance you are at winning. The better we can get Flacco the quickest, the best chance we have at winning down the road. Getting a good pass rusher is simply a plug in, there is not much in terms of development or timing. Getting a great QB requires time, patience, and development. Adding a #1 WR would greatly boost this process. Get the receiver now, get the pass rusher next.

 

It's a QB's league in-so-much as Brees and Manning made headlines in the Super Bowl, but make no mistake: New Orleans won this year, in the playoffs, and in the Super Bowl because of their turnover-forcing defense just as much as because of their offense. Dallas and Minnesota also both relied heavily on their defense to get pressure on the opposing QB's and to set the tempo. No matter how well Brees played, Minnesota still would have won that game if New Orleans' defense didn't step it up and disrupt Favre's timing. Remember how much they hit him that game? Remember how Peyton Manning looked when the Jets came out with pressure? If they could have kept up that pressure all game (and without blitzing 6-7 guys) they would have had a chance to win.

 

The Saints won this year because of their defense. Last year, without a defense (Sharper, Vilma, Jenkins, etc.), they missed the playoffs. Same offense almost to-the-player, only without Shockey. The Steelers definitely won last year in large part because of their defense. The Giants definitely won because of their defense. The Colts only won in 2006 because their defense came on in the playoffs. The Steelers got another one the year before that, with a second-year QB (who played absolutely horrendous in that game.) Then you can keep going back... Patriots, Patriots, Bucs (definitely defense), Patriots (disrupted the Rams with their scrappy defense), and our 2000 Ravens.

 

If I had to name a theme for the 2000-2009 Super Bowl winners, it would definitely be "You can't win a Super Bowl without a good or great defense."

 

 

And to your other point about our corners... while we certainly don't have a bunch of Pro Bowlers lining up back there, I contend that they would look like Pro Bowlers if you threw Jared Allen next to Ngata, Edwards, and Kelly. And that's even before Webb gets back next year.

[thundercleetz]

It's a QB's league in-so-much as Brees and Manning made headlines in the Super Bowl, but make no mistake: New Orleans won this year, in the playoffs, and in the Super Bowl because of their turnover-forcing defense just as much as because of their offense. Dallas and Minnesota also both relied heavily on their defense to get pressure on the opposing QB's and to set the tempo. No matter how well Brees played, Minnesota still would have won that game if New Orleans' defense didn't step it up and disrupt Favre's timing. Remember how much they hit him that game? Remember how Peyton Manning looked when the Jets came out with pressure? If they could have kept up that pressure all game (and without blitzing 6-7 guys) they would have had a chance to win.

 

The Saints won this year because of their defense. Last year, without a defense (Sharper, Vilma, Jenkins, etc.), they missed the playoffs. Same offense almost to-the-player, only without Shockey. The Steelers definitely won last year in large part because of their defense. The Giants definitely won because of their defense. The Colts only won in 2006 because their defense came on in the playoffs. The Steelers got another one the year before that, with a second-year QB (who played absolutely horrendous in that game.) Then you can keep going back... Patriots, Patriots, Bucs (definitely defense), Patriots (disrupted the Rams with their scrappy defense), and our 2000 Ravens.

 

If I had to name a theme for the 2000-2009 Super Bowl winners, it would definitely be "You can't win a Super Bowl without a good or great defense."

 

 

And to your other point about our corners... while we certainly don't have a bunch of Pro Bowlers lining up back there, I contend that they would look like Pro Bowlers if you threw Jared Allen next to Ngata, Edwards, and Kelly. And that's even before Webb gets back next year.

 

You completely avoided my point. Getting a WR is more critical to the development of Joe Flacco than a pass rusher is to Foxworth, Carr, etc. We can always get a pass rusher, getting a WR now will propel Joe quicker into that next ecoholon of QBs. With QBs, time is critical before they max out and learn habits that they will never be able to overcome. We need to get Flacco a #1 now or he will never throw the ball over the middle.

[SpearSrai]

You completely avoided my point. Getting a WR is more critical to the development of Joe Flacco than a pass rusher is to Foxworth, Carr, etc. We can always get a pass rusher, getting a WR now will propel Joe quicker into that next ecoholon of QBs. With QBs, time is critical before they max out and learn habits that they will never be able to overcome. We need to get Flacco a #1 now or he will never throw the ball over the middle.

 

I didn't avoid your point. My point is that the QB's development, while important, isn't necessarily more valuable than a game-changing pass-rusher in the Lawrence Taylor mold. And it's not like there aren't plenty of good QB's without All-pro receivers to throw to. A good QB will make his receivers look good, no matter who they are, as long as he's protected, and that's something we already have going for us.

[thundercleetz]

I didn't avoid your point. My point is that the QB's development, while important, isn't necessarily more valuable than a game-changing pass-rusher in the Lawrence Taylor mold. And it's not like there aren't plenty of good QB's without All-pro receivers to throw to. A good QB will make his receivers look good, no matter who they are, as long as he's protected, and that's something we already have going for us.

 

If you are talking about making an immediate impact, then your are right, the pass rusher might be the choice. What I am saying is for the well being of our franchise over the long-term Joe's development is most important. While a good QB will make his receivers look good, Joe does not throw certain routes because he does not have the receivers that can run them. That could easily turn into a habit for Joe down the road where he will be very reluctant to throw over the middle until he gets a receiver that can run those routes. Then we are stuck with a QB that will not be able to make his receivers better. A pass rusher on the other hand can be acquired at any time and simply inserted in the defense to make an instant impact.

[SpearSrai]

If you are talking about making an immediate impact, then your are right, the pass rusher might be the choice. What I am saying is for the well being of our franchise over the long-term Joe's development is most important. While a good QB will make his receivers look good, Joe does not throw certain routes because he does not have the receivers that can run them. That could easily turn into a habit for Joe down the road where he will be very reluctant to throw over the middle until he gets a receiver that can run those routes. Then we are stuck with a QB that will not be able to make his receivers better. A pass rusher on the other hand can be acquired at any time and simply inserted in the defense to make an instant impact.

 

Any NFL receiver can run a crossing route or a slant. Some are better than others, but I refuse to believe that we employ 5-6 guys who can't run a basic NFL route.

 

And pass-rushers can take a few years to develop as well, especially when you're talking about DE's.

[thundercleetz]

Any NFL receiver can run a crossing route or a slant. Some are better than others, but I refuse to believe that we employ 5-6 guys who can't run a basic NFL route.

 

And pass-rushers can take a few years to develop as well, especially when you're talking about DE's.

 

You are right, I can go out there and run a slant or crossing route. What I am talking about it when your top two receivers are 5'10" and body catchers, Flacco is going to be hesistant to throw that ball over the middle as there is a very small window of opportunity for a completion. When you have a guy that is 6'2" and catches with his hands, there is a lot more room for error on these throws and the QB will be more comfortable.

 

Are you really trying to compare the development of a pass rusher to a QB? You are kidding, right? Suggs notched 12 sacks his rookie year, Orakpo got 11 this past season and made the Pro Bowl, Matthews got 10.5 as a rookie and made the Pro Bowl. Ware got 8 his rookie year, Merriman got 10 his rookie year, and Dumervil got 8.5 his rookie year. Now, if you are talking about becoming an All-Pro defensive end in the form of a Mario Williams or Julius Peppers, you are right, that can take awhile. But you could say that about any position on the football field for an All-Pro. But we are not talking about that, we are talking about guys being able to get to the QB. That can be a very one-dimensional task if you draft specifically.

[SpearSrai]

You are right, I can go out there and run a slant or crossing route. What I am talking about it when your top two receivers are 5'10" and body catchers, Flacco is going to be hesistant to throw that ball over the middle as there is a very small window of opportunity for a completion. When you have a guy that is 6'2" and catches with his hands, there is a lot more room for error on these throws and the QB will be more comfortable.

 

Are you really trying to compare the development of a pass rusher to a QB? You are kidding, right? Suggs notched 12 sacks his rookie year, Orakpo got 11 this past season and made the Pro Bowl, Matthews got 10.5 as a rookie and made the Pro Bowl. Ware got 8 his rookie year, Merriman got 10 his rookie year, and Dumervil got 8.5 his rookie year. Now, if you are talking about becoming an All-Pro defensive end in the form of a Mario Williams or Julius Peppers, you are right, that can take awhile. But you could say that about any position on the football field for an All-Pro. But we are not talking about that, we are talking about guys being able to get to the QB. That can be a very one-dimensional task if you draft specifically.

 

The coaching staff decided that the 5'10 guys were our two best receivers; I (and their on-field production) certainly didn't. The other guys (Washington, Williams, Harper, etc.) all have decent size. Just because Clayton can't get separation from a defender doesn't mean it's impossible for a 5'10 guy to do so... maybe he's just not very good.

 

And I said that DE's CAN take a few years to develop. Yes, they can have some production as rookies, notching sacks here and there, but that by no means means they are dominating at their position. Just like rookie QB's can throw touchdowns, you have to count their interceptions against them as well. Maybe Suggs got 12 sacks as a rookie, but was he ever dominant? To this day, even? I'd bet if you broke it down year by year, the play-by-play production of the pass-rushers increased a lot in years 2 and 3. Early on, a lot of guys only go in for known pass-rush situations.

[thundercleetz]

The coaching staff decided that the 5'10 guys were our two best receivers; I (and their on-field production) certainly didn't. The other guys (Washington, Williams, Harper, etc.) all have decent size. Just because Clayton can't get separation from a defender doesn't mean it's impossible for a 5'10 guy to do so... maybe he's just not very good.

 

And I said that DE's CAN take a few years to develop. Yes, they can have some production as rookies, notching sacks here and there, but that by no means means they are dominating at their position. Just like rookie QB's can throw touchdowns, you have to count their interceptions against them as well. Maybe Suggs got 12 sacks as a rookie, but was he ever dominant? To this day, even? I'd bet if you broke it down year by year, the play-by-play production of the pass-rushers increased a lot in years 2 and 3. Early on, a lot of guys only go in for known pass-rush situations.

 

You are not going to convince me, I am not going to convince you, we both make good points, agree to disagree?

[SpearSrai]

You are not going to convince me, I am not going to convince you, we both make good points, agree to disagree?

 

*shrug* Disagreement is half the fun of sports. The games only last for 16 hours a year. (And 20 if you're lucky.)