Serial

[OutsideRzAcE]

Just knocked out all the episodes during the Holidays (great to listen to during a road trip btw). Has anyone listened to this and do you think Adnan is guilty?

[dc.]

Haven't listened yet but have read about it. Will let you know. Maybe I'll cue it up for my commute in the coming week or two...

[Spen]

Odd timing, I listened to episode one Friday and episode two today. Good listen so far, will let you know my thoughts when I finish the series.

[thundercleetz]

I finished all the episodes in two days. I got hooked. Interested to hear what everyone thinks.

[OutsideRzAcE]

I finished all the episodes in two days. I got hooked. Interested to hear what everyone thinks.

 

I think Adnan is guilty, but the State just did a crap job gathering evidence/putting a case together against him. As the lady says in the last episode - there are just too many things you have to chalk up to bad luck to believe Adnan is innocent.

[dc.]

I'm on episode nine. I don't yet have the Adnan has to be guilty feeling at all.

 

There's a blog out there, the view from LL2, that has taken up the cause for Adnan further. Some of it is crap, but some is really interesting. The latest post has some serious evidence that Jays statement was coached - at least to some extent. (His story changes based in cell records, and in particular a faulty cell map the police had, so he changes one way then back again when they fix it).

 

Bottom line, I just don't get how Jay isn't a suspect... If you step away from starting with the states narrative, it suddenly doesn't seem like bad luck for Adnan. It seems like someone is deliberately creating a story to make him guilty.

 

Maybe my thoughts will change in the final three episodes.

 

 

Second make finding from that blog: the cell records clearly show that Adnan did not check his voicemail as stated by police and even Koenig - if you read the record, the #AdnansNumber means someone is leaving him a voicemail. How everyone missed that is mysterious... But that call was used to price Adnan had his phone at a certain point, and now it clearly says otherwise.

[Spen]

I just finished episode 8 and have no idea how they convicted Adnan. I am not sure what I think happened yet. Off tomorrow so I may finish it.

 

Very well done.

[dc.]

I wasn't sure I could listen to a podcast or any narrative in thus way- seven though I am a very auditory person, I thought I'd be distracted easily. Part of the success had been listening in my car on my commute, but I've also listened to a few just lying in bed or on the couch as I would TV. It's superbly put together.

[thundercleetz]

My thoughts are Adnan is guilty but there was not enough evidence to put him in jail (although in the interview with the prosecutor below he provides an interesting argument, although that is his job lol). When everyone is done, I strongly recommend reading the three part interview with Jay:

 

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/12/29/exclusive-interview-jay-wilds-star-witness-adnan-syed-serial-case-pt-1/

 

And the two part interview with prosecutor Kevin Urick:

 

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/01/07/prosecutor-serial-case-goes-record/

 

I think Koenig gets emotionally attached to Adnan and his story and as a result is a little biased when presenting the evidence against Jay. Regardless I thought the podcast was superb but I think it's only fair to hear both sides of the story.

[dc.]

I followed those interview when they came out, even before I had really listened to the podcast. I don't really find either interesting, except that Jay changes his story again and Urick lies about the contact Koenig made to them.

 

Urick especially adds nothing to the story. He just repeatedly says, I got it right. And I love how he says he'd never talk about the case to Koenig because it would be unethical and he isn't authorized... Then gives this interview.

 

Lastly, my view on the interviews is made by the horrible reporters and reporting they did - including taunting Koenig a bit. They show none of the tact that made Serial relatable and respectable.

[thundercleetz]

I followed those interview when they came out, even before I had really listened to the podcast. I don't really find either interesting, except that Jay changes his story again and Urick lies about the contact Koenig made to them.

 

Urick especially adds nothing to the story. He just repeatedly says, I got it right. And I love how he says he'd never talk about the case to Koenig because it would be unethical and he isn't authorized... Then gives this interview.

 

Lastly, my view on the interviews is made by the horrible reporters and reporting they did - including taunting Koenig a bit. They show none of the tact that made Serial relatable and respectable.

We'll agree to disagree here. I certainly think Jay is holding something back, but I'm in the camp that Jay's story matched enough to make me believe it was a plausible explanation. Enough to put Adnan in jail? No. The interview is important because Koenig was definitely biased toward Adnan, understandably. And when she finally got ahold of Jay the press of the podcast had built up so much against Jay. He needed another outlet to tell his story. I'm not really worried about the quality of reporting, I'm taking into consideration Jay's words independently.

 

I thought Urick's explaination of the cell phone technology was something not touched upon enough by Koenig. As mentioned, enough to put Adnan in jail? No. But Adnan's not offering any sort of rebuttal on what happened that day or being able to recall any sort of whereabouts. Whether Jay or Adnan did it, I think they were undoubtedly together that day around the time Hae was murdered. They are both not innocent IMO. Who knows what happened beyond that.

[dc.]

I guess I'd say I'm swayed by the other blog I mentioned that casts serious fonts on the cell phone.

 

Jay and the cell records just don't make sense, and that's all Urick kept repeating, that he says they do. Easiest example: Jat says he is at Jens all afternoon before picking up Adnan. So why do the call logs not show him there and show him calling Jens house over and over?

 

Urick hand picked the parts of the cell records that he needed and he, and everyone, ignored glaring inconsistencies in other parts of the timeline. Add to that any hint of Jay being coached and all of Jays inconsistencies and I'm just stuck with we have to their out the entire narrative.

[Spen]

I just finished listening to the last episode a little while ago. Very well done, the series was both entertaining and thought provoking.

 

Its disturbing to me that Adnan is in prison for this crime. There is reasonable doubt all over the place. From the actions of his attorney, to Jay's changing story, to Jay's friend Jenn having a different story than he did. Plus no physical evidence at all. Frustrating. Prosecutor Urick helping Jay get an attorney? Yikes.

 

Now if you ask me if he really did it.....Hmmm, I lean toward yes mainly because of Dana's bad luck synopsis in the last episode and the fact they cannot really point to anyone else who did it. The possible serial killer would be nice, but how does that explain Jay?

 

I know it might be a cop out, I just don't know.

 

Since he has been in prison almost 15 years, I really hope it was Adnan.

[dc.]

I'm most interested to hear of the DNA brings back any hit... Also curious if the city says it won't test the DNA, is there any reason a private group can't pay to have it done? If the state's not going to use the evidence or examine it can someone else?

[OutsideRzAcE]

Anyone else find it weird how Adnan near flipped out at Sara when she said she was starting to believe he was innocent because he was simply "too nice a guy". Almost like he felt guilty that she started that she was starting believe in him.

[dc.]

Anyone else find it weird how Adnan near flipped out at Sara when she said she was starting to believe he was innocent because he was simply "too nice a guy". Almost like he felt guilty that she started that she was starting believe in him.

I thought it was weird that he didn't think they knew each other - which was the same conversion. Though I guess he's been in jail since the early internet days so maybe he doesn't get how personally you can know someone without knowing them.

 

But to your point directly, I understood him. He's heard that for the whole time- in fact that was pretty much the defense his attorney offered at trial. It's a nice sentiment, but he doesn't exactly need more friends who like him.

[thundercleetz]

Anyone think it's possible that Adnan blacked out and repressed the memory? Obviously a long shot but I thought that part of the podcast was interesting.

[dc.]

That's the one theory I've never bought. Now granted, I've never killed someone or committed any act even close, but I think even when ideas are repressed they linger. And while he may have blacked out for the murder, he'd remember the cover up!

 

I am still stuck on Jay. If we remove the Nisha call, it seems like Jay has the phone from noon until almost six uninterrupted. And we also know he was out shopping, perhaps at that best buy?, at some point that day. In fact, even the apparent come get me call pings the phone near best buy.

 

So jay has the phone. The phone is near the alleged crime scene most of the alleged crime time. And then Jay has the phone alone for most of the later hours.

 

The only thing really bugging is why Adnans phone pings near the park later, which is a big question. But the calls that ping there are incoming, which are far less reliable (if at all) for location data, so is there another location that makes sense nearby for Adnan to have been? Or did someone else have the phone? I just don't trust Jay's ever shifting time line and logic.

 

I'll also admit, it's unclear to me why Jay would try to pin it on Adnan - except that perhaps the police were already leaning that way so he just went with them because they were eager to and it made his lie easier.

[thundercleetz]

The things with Adnan that don't make sense are how does he not remember anything that day? I don't know about you but making four or five different stops on a school day was not typical (in Adnan's case, going out for lunch, library, track practice, friends house and the mosque). Not to mention he received a call from the cops? Very suspicious to me. My guess he could have been incredibly naive, but he didn't remember anything about a day where he made mutiple trips. Hae's BF remembered everything about that day because of the cop call. Just my thoughts.

 

Other mysteries for me: how did Jay know where the car was? Who made the anonymous call to the cops?

[dc.]

The things with Adnan that don't make sense are how does he not remember anything that day? I don't know about you but making four or five different stops on a school day was not typical (in Adnan's case, going out for lunch, library, track practice, friends house and the mosque). Not to mention he received a call from the cops? Very suspicious to me. My guess he could have been incredibly naive, but he didn't remember anything about a day where he made mutiple trips. Hae's BF remembered everything about that day because of the cop call. Just my thoughts.

 

Other mysteries for me: how did Jay know where the car was? Who made the anonymous call to the cops?

I am suspicious about not remembering much only because even if the cops didn't call, is the day a friend disappeared. But at the same time, he had little reason to remember the day six weeks later when first really asked about it.

 

There are lots of non normal days in my schedule - snow day, no work, heat broke, etc - but as month later I couldn't tell you the details of any of them.

 

I also think you're making an assumption about what's normal or not. He said he left for a free period normally, that going to the library before track was normal, track itself was normal, and the mosque would have been fairly normal during Ramadan. So lots of movement, but nothing strange for him except going to Cathy's...

 

Definitely didn't help him. But I am awful at what I did on a given day beyond a week or so.

[thundercleetz]

I am suspicious about not remembering much only because even if the cops didn't call, is the day a friend disappeared. But at the same time, he had little reason to remember the day six weeks later when first really asked about it.

There are lots of non normal days in my schedule - snow day, no work, heat broke, etc - but as month later I couldn't tell you the details of any of them.

I also think you're making an assumption about what's normal or not. He said he left for a free period normally, that going to the library before track was normal, track itself was normal, and the mosque would have been fairly normal during Ramadan. So lots of movement, but nothing strange for him except going to Cathy's...

Definitely didn't help him. But I am awful at what I did on a given day beyond a week or so.

Maybe an unfair assumption, I can see it from that point of view. BUT if we are giving Adnan the benefit of the doubt for not remembering the details of the day, I think we have to give that to Jay with respect to his story "changing". I don't really think his story changed all that much, I think the gist is fairly consistent and he was unwavering and adamant about the main facts. Just my opinion and I understand people who see it otherwise. Once again, nothing here is enough to put Adnan in jail, but as far as a yes/no do I think he did it, that is how I see it.

 

The Cathy visit was really weird for me. Very baffling.

 

Kind of my gut feeling right now, I do not think Hae was killed in the time frame stated by the state. I think Adnan may have been at the library, but not track practice. I think Jay knows more than he is telling, and was involved more than he says. Regardless, I am sure there are only two suspects here, Jay and Adnan. I don't buy the loose serial killer story, doesn't explain how Jay knew where the car was? Maybe we can hook them both up to a lie detector test?

 

Right now I subscribe to Sarah's bad luck theory, there would have to be a lot of bad luck in one day for Adnan to be innocent. I do believe the Nisha call was a butt dial, good investigation there. However, I still think Adnan did it.

[dc.]

I do give Jay a lot of that benefit. I'm not expecting him to be perfect, but there is just too much wrong. I really disagree that the stuff that changed was little stuff (the only pieces that remain in place are that he saw the body and buried it). I think when we couple the changes in his story with the hints that seemed to be coming from the cops, I have trouble believing much of anything in the timeline. The visit to Patapsco? Best Buy or Westview or Cathy's House to first see the body? The body was buried now (today) he says after midnight?

 

I definitely think Hae "disappeared" (and maybe was killed) by 3 or 3:30. I think I more question whether she was buried according to their timeline. She could have been killed and in her trunk for a long time and whoever killed her could have come back whenever. I'm not arguing days, but hours. Maybe she wasn't buried when those phone calls ping near Leakin; maybe Jay went back very late at night as he now says. That's more what I am questioning.

 

 

Speaking of weird things - how about the note to Don in Hae's car? Maybe it was written late (early) that morning when she had to go home or maybe they saw each other before school? But, "Sorry I couldn't stay... I have a wrestling match to go to sure sounds like it was written that afternoon? So, where was she planning to see/meet Don and where was the note going to go? The one theory I heard - totally speculative - but maybe she was going to see Don at work at a mall, could be Best Buy or WestView (though didn't realize he was in Hunt Valley that day). At Best Buy, she runs into Adnan's car - while looking for Don's - but instead runs into Jay... and something goes from there?

 

It's all just crazy.

[thundercleetz]

I do give Jay a lot of that benefit. I'm not expecting him to be perfect, but there is just too much wrong. I really disagree that the stuff that changed was little stuff (the only pieces that remain in place are that he saw the body and buried it). I think when we couple the changes in his story with the hints that seemed to be coming from the cops, I have trouble believing much of anything in the timeline. The visit to Patapsco? Best Buy or Westview or Cathy's House to first see the body? The body was buried now (today) he says after midnight?

Right, from a legal standpoint in no way does it prove Adnan guilty. Even if everything matched up, it would still be a stretch given there is no physical evidence. For me, I do not see those changes as a big deal. Although, the prosecutor recommending Jay a lawyer is very suspicious. And Jay getting off with no jail time is weird. I read somewhere that outcome for someone in Jay's position is extremely rare. So I think you are onto something with the connection with the cops, however, I think that is more so because Jay was involved with the murder more than he let on, and the "changes" were to protect himself while telling the gist of the real story.

 

I just don't think Jay is smart enough to frame Adnan. I believe Jay and Adnan were together that afternoon. And regardless of who did it, if Jay murdered Hae, wouldn't Adnan simply say Jay did it? The only way he wouldn't is if he was not with Jay that afternoon, which would be hard to believe.

 

I definitely think Hae "disappeared" (and maybe was killed) by 3 or 3:30. I think I more question whether she was buried according to their timeline. She could have been killed and in her trunk for a long time and whoever killed her could have come back whenever. I'm not arguing days, but hours. Maybe she wasn't buried when those phone calls ping near Leakin; maybe Jay went back very late at night as he now says. That's more what I am questioning.

What about the conversation with the other wrestling manager who said she was absolutely positive she spoke with Hae on the day of the match? If this is so, the state's timeline becomes very difficult to believe.

 

Speaking of weird things - how about the note to Don in Hae's car? Maybe it was written late (early) that morning when she had to go home or maybe they saw each other before school? But, "Sorry I couldn't stay... I have a wrestling match to go to sure sounds like it was written that afternoon? So, where was she planning to see/meet Don and where was the note going to go? The one theory I heard - totally speculative - but maybe she was going to see Don at work at a mall, could be Best Buy or WestView (though didn't realize he was in Hunt Valley that day). At Best Buy, she runs into Adnan's car - while looking for Don's - but instead runs into Jay... and something goes from there?

Interesting. That note is definitely one of the curve balls. Although I thought Don only worked at the Owings Mills and Hunt Valley malls? Furthermore, how about all the witnesses who said they overheard Hae was going to meet up with Adnan later? She had a plan for that note, if only we knew.

[dc.]

 

Interesting. That note is definitely one of the curve balls. Although I thought Don only worked at the Owings Mills and Hunt Valley malls? Furthermore, how about all the witnesses who said they overheard Hae was going to meet up with Adnan later? She had a plan for that note, if only we knew.

I couldn't remember where Don worked aside from Hunt Valley, just that it was a mall.

 

I read two interesting questions about this recently. First, Adnan has at times admitted that he asked Has for a ride that day. Though I think he now denies it. But the question is, where was he going to meet Hae to get that ride and when? It would answer some questions perhaps about both their routes.

 

Second, more interesting, where's all the forensic evidence in Hae's car? Apparently it was super clean both physically and forensic wise. If someone drove her car from the park after the burial, where's all the mud and dirt? And apparently her trunk was full of personal belongings. When they argue her body was in that trunk, was it on top of that stuff? Shouldn't there be evidence of that?

 

Did Adnan or Jay every go back to the car after that night? I read somewhere that Jay admits having visited the car just days before the cops find him and interview him. Why would he do that?

[dc.]

http://viewfromll2.com/2015/02/12/serial-the-burial-in-leakin-park-did-not-take-place-at-700-p-m/#more-4944

 

Another post from the separate lawyer starting to investigate. Some of it gets very loose, I feel, but the beginning is what I find interesting: according to the autopsy (and some modern testimony looking at the autopsy), Hae's body had to be on its stomach/front down for an extended period before burial - probably at least 8 hours if not more. But the body was buried on its side and most of the story relies on her body being in her car trunk, which you would assume would mean on its side also.

 

The big point here - if Hae died between 2 and 4pm, it's not nearly enough time for her to have been buried at 7pm for the autopsy to make sense. If she was buried post-midnight, though, it would make more sense (this is what Jay says happens in most recent interviews). The ultimate point here, is that the 7pm phone calls near Leakin Park - that the prosecution say prove Adnan was there - suddenly REALLY don't fit the timeline.

 

The post also has some info about how Jay and Jenn's stories clash in ways that could prove this discrepancy further. But some of the other details are stretched, I'd argue.