Syria

[Robjr83]

These are our "allies"

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ZqJfFrkzf8I

 

 

In case you don't have a youtube account its a video of a rebel leader cutting out the heart of a fallen regime soldier and eating it.

[papasmurfbell]

I have seen that vid before. That kind of thing happens in war. We don't have allies exactly. I would think the admin would like to set up some puppet that Washington can control. That has worked so well in the past I see why they want to do it.

[thundercleetz]

http://english.al-akhbar.com/content/syria%E2%80%99s-kessab-devastation-armenian-safe-haven

 

http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/raymond-ibrahim/turkeys-new-jihad-on-christian-armenians/#.UzYK4mv4zZ0.facebook

 

Unfortunately my concerns in this thread were correct. And to think our politicians wanted to support these terrible people.

[oldcrow]

congrats to cleetz for taking the higher road

 

[dc.]

Don't trust either source there.

 

That said, also don't trust either side in Syria. But not all rebels there are all Qaeda links.

[thundercleetz]

Don't trust either source there.

 

That said, also don't trust either side in Syria. But not all rebels there are all Qaeda links.

What's not to trust? There are much more links with actual gruesome video evidence. I'll save you the details.

 

http://www.armenianweekly.com/2014/03/29/chairman-menendez-congressional-armenian-caucus-co-chairs-members-of-congress-condemn-kessab-attacks/

 

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/27/world/europe/turkey-youtube-blocked/

 

The Turkey reports are definitely circumstantial and second and third hand, possibly. However the attacks are not. Similar attacks were enough for the US to consider intervening and all I'm saying is it was completely asinine we were considering stepping in and choosing a side here.

[dc.]

FrontPage is a David Horowitz fronted operation whose tagline is "Inside every liberal is a totalitarian screaming to get out." .... ?

 

I mean, I have no doubt that awful things are happening. I do have doubts about who we can attribute any of it to. I also have doubts when people want to assign all parts of a rebellious regime to the voices of a few within it. On the other hand, it's not hard to say that about a government regime which by definition is a bit more unified in its voice and action.

 

I think more than choosing a side, we were considering acting as we did in Libya and "balancing" an unbalanced fight (namely, one side having chemical weapons and air strike capability).

 

As for the Turkey stuff... Turkey is an absolute mess. What it is allowing to happen has far less to do with problems of Syria and far more to do with problems of Turkey. What is happening in Syria now is of course a breeding ground for extremism, mainly because there is no governing authority overseeing anything. Covert operations can be less covert and more mainstream in the midst of chaos. But it still doesn't mean it's a majority view or even a plurality view.

[thundercleetz]

FrontPage is a David Horowitz fronted operation whose tagline is "Inside every liberal is a totalitarian screaming to get out." .... ?

 

I mean, I have no doubt that awful things are happening. I do have doubts about who we can attribute any of it to. I also have doubts when people want to assign all parts of a rebellious regime to the voices of a few within it. On the other hand, it's not hard to say that about a government regime which by definition is a bit more unified in its voice and action.

 

I think more than choosing a side, we were considering acting as we did in Libya and "balancing" an unbalanced fight (namely, one side having chemical weapons and air strike capability).

 

As for the Turkey stuff... Turkey is an absolute mess. What it is allowing to happen has far less to do with problems of Syria and far more to do with problems of Turkey. What is happening in Syria now is of course a breeding ground for extremism, mainly because there is no governing authority overseeing anything. Covert operations can be less covert and more mainstream in the midst of chaos. But it still doesn't mean it's a majority view or even a plurality view.

Fair point on the website. Website itself is not credible, but it was more so the content I was getting at showing my concerns from months earlier. I still think you play a dangerous game when you try and play god and balance a fight. Balancing the rebels against the Syrian government may expose and make vulnerable, for example, Christian minorities in Syria that normally would not have been. Syria may have chemical weapons and air strike ability, but Assad didn't target and kill anyone based upon their religion or ethnicity. I am not defending Assad at all, but Al-Qeda is proven to hide behind women and children. Really, how is this any different than the types of attacks the US has conducted against the Taliban? We have killed women and children as a result of targeting the Taliban. Air strike, tactical missiles, chemical weapons, the end result is death and it is all just as equally wrong.

 

Not all Syrian rebels are Al-Qeda, but Al-Qeda has proven to be a very influential and intimidating minority that more than has the ability to control a majority. Additionally they cannot be negotiated or engaged in diplomacy. Yes, you are right, no one is 100% sure what is happening on the ground or who is doing what. My point is that is exactly why we shouldn't get involved even if we are trying to balance a fight. By your logic, we don't even know what we are balancing!

 

As it relates to Syria, every action has reactions that might not be intended. I am certainly not defending Assad, but at least Assad has had religious tolerance of some sort. My grandparents from my father's side are from Syria, so I may be more sympathetic to the potential consequences here than others. The Aleppo area in Syria served as the final stop of Armenians for death matches in the desert by Ottoman Turks during WWI. Syria took in a few hundred thousand Armenian Christian refugees after WWI and they have lived there relatively in peace since.

 

In addition to nearly 200,000 Armenian Christians, there are over 2.3 million other Christians (650,000 of which are Catholic) that reside in Syria. The native Arab Christians have inhabited the Damascus area for thousands of years.

 

Now history tells that Al Qaeda displays no religious tolerance. Here is my point: we make a move against Assad and Al Qaeda seizes control of the government, the 2.5 million Christians in that area are instantly at risk. We will see deportations, restriction of religious and cultural practices, and possibly murder. There have already been tens of thousands Armenian-Syrian refugees thanks to Syrian rebels.

 

Bottom line, we attack the Syrian government for using chemical weapons on a thousand or so Al Qaeda sympathizers, millions of other people could become in danger. I am not minimizing anyone's unfortunate death but when our national security is not at risk who are we to decide who lives and who dies?

A couple of more complexities to ponder: there are two million Kurds in Syria. Kurds are already fighting Al Qaeda. What happens to the Kurds if Al Qaeda overthrows Assad? We know what's going on with the Kurds in Iraq. I don't mean to go conspiracy theorist here but I am very curious where this "evidence" came from that it was the Syrian government who used the chemical weapons. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the evidence came from Erdogan with Turkey trying to coax us to do their dirty work. We know Erdogan hates Assad and Turkey's "concerns" about Kurdish welfare are well documented. Turkey would love for us to get rid of two birds with one stone. Get rid of Assad then Turkey can force out all their Kurds to a Syria in chaos. All while we belittle Russia and Iran asserting Turkish influence in the Eurasian area.

Call me skeptical but my race was nearly wiped out 100 years ago for a mass murder that was never brought to justice and this tyrant Erdogan vehemently denies. The same guy who shutdown the internet days before a suspicious audio leak and an even more suspicious terrorist boarder crossing. Circumstantial, yes but Turkey is what our country considers a model democracy in the Middle East. Bottom line, we do not now nearly enough to even think about entering into this fray to balance the attack.

 

This situation poses no threat to our national security and we should stay away. Why am I even bringing this up? I just happened to get a response a couple of weeks ago from our wonderful senator Mikulski blindly reaffirming her support for involvement in Syria.

[thundercleetz]

http://www.infowars.com/turkey-behind-sarin-attack-in-syria/

 

Of course consider the source, but just one more thing that shows no one has any idea what's going on over there and we need to stay out.

 

http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/04/07/the-less-americans-know-about-ukraines-location-the-more-they-want-u-s-to-intervene/

 

No wonder Congress is so quick to support American intervention, look at the population who elects them.

[dc.]

I dunno... If infowars says it happened, you can bet the opposite happened and that all alleged motivations have been fabricated if not simply reversed

[thundercleetz]

I dunno... If infowars says it happened, you can bet the opposite happened and that all alleged motivations have been fabricated if not simply reversed

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/04/07/syri-a07.html

 

http://m.democracynow.org/stories/14292

 

Think it's safe to say doubt at the very least is there on our initial intelligence, much less our politicians own motivations.

 

Haha I didn't take you for an Alex Jones kind of guy, DC. How about the NSA though? Call Alex Jones a looney all you want, but he he was right about some very important issues way before anyone else even suspected. Sure you can claim he fabricates stories, our own politicians have flat out lied to us about much worse. So why would you believe them on this issue, especially after Iraq?

 

Either way I don't want to turn this into an Alex Jones argument. Bottom line we went into Iraq with a similar claim of "intelligence" and how has that worked out? How someone can support evening a fight when the sides aren't even clear is putting your hand into a shark tank. And anyone who claims any sort of humanitarianism, I can show you a few hundred thousand dead native Africans of Darfur since 2003.

 

http://asbarez.com/121807/young-kessab-armenian-killed-by-rebels/

 

http://asbarez.com/121795/angry-ankara-calls-senate-panel-%E2%80%98inept%E2%80%99/

 

I'm thinking our intelligence in Syria is being fabricated by a Eurasian ally...

[dc.]

I'm not saying I believe anyone, only that I do not believe Jones. The guy is a loon and a fear monger. Did you see his Piers Morgan interview?

 

I'd love to know what he was on top of "first." But I'll also be hard to convince because if you call everything a conspiracy or cover up it's bound to be right eventually. That doesn't make you prophetic or even insightful... It makes you a blind squirrel.

[dc.]

And yes I know you said not an Alex Jones argument but I just meant that I am not taking sides on us being in Syria or how good our intelligence is there (it's awful) just that I won't be convinced of a reality but a fantasy world conspiracy theorist and whack job.

[oldcrow]

Ahhh yes ,

makes me want to listen to the band

 

FEAR LETS HAVE A WAR live version

[papasmurfbell]

I dunno... If infowars says it happened, you can bet the opposite happened and that all alleged motivations have been fabricated if not simply reversed

While Alex will race out to the thinnest of branches he is right more thna he is wrong. If he would calm down and act rationally he would be much more convincing. Peirs played that perfectly allowing Alex to fly off the handle and marginalize himself.

[thundercleetz]

And yes I know you said not an Alex Jones argument but I just meant that I am not taking sides on us being in Syria or how good our intelligence is there (it's awful) just that I won't be convinced of a reality but a fantasy world conspiracy theorist and whack job.

Haha I like your blind squirrel analogy. Regardless I provided two other articles stating the same thing from completely different source types. Anyways all I'm saying is I have not seen ANY logical or argument of substance FOR going into Syria. I don't even think the government itself could explain why they want to go into Syria without exposing their less than reputable intentions.

[papasmurfbell]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ez3iKqAmbA[/media]

Go to about 6:20 but sub in Syria.

[dc.]

Rand Paul is only marginally more relevant than Alex Jones.

 

I spent some time this AM searching for predictions Alex Jones has made that came true. I found lots of claims about his predictions but little that was actually specific enough to matter. People say he predicted 911 because he said tthat Osama bin laden would commit terrorism one day... Profound seeing as we already knew he was a terrorist. He also claimed there would be a housing bubble... But only after Alan Greenspan announced a raise in rates because the fed was fearing one.

 

I'm unsure what I'm supposed to be impressed with there. And then after making vague claims, he claims to be practically prophetic with his insight... But decides that he has an answer for why everything is happening. He couldn't just say "told you Osama was going to come back" he has to go and call it a false flag operation designed to... Take our civil liberties? So now even if he was right about terrorism he is wrong in his explanations... If you to the answer of five but got there by adding six and six... You're still an ass and wrong

[dc.]

By the way I am not saying I disagree with Paul in that clip, especially re the military industrial complex. But he's simply not who I would take cues from. One day he is filibustering against drone usage... The next he is on Fox saying that we should use drones to catch people who hold up 7-11. He's a faux libertarian and political weasel.

[papasmurfbell]

I am not for Paul. I am just stating how Halliburton made a pile of cash. Lockeed made a pile of cash. You name the contractor and they made a pile of cash. That is what a war with Syria would be about. It is not about what is best for the american people. It is abouty what is best for the bottom line.

[thundercleetz]

Go to about 6:20 but sub in Syria.

Exactly and our government would probably give us a similar response on Syria trying to hide their true intentions:

 

[papasmurfbell]

Rumsfeld should be on trial at the Hague. Cheney and GW will not leave the country now. They know they are war criminals and they know there are countries hoping they will stumble into theri country to take them into custody.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r42oejmpkgw

Guess what Rumsfeld just sold.

[Spen]

I am not for Paul. I am just stating how Halliburton made a pile of cash. Lockeed made a pile of cash. You name the contractor and they made a pile of cash. That is what a war with Syria would be about. It is not about what is best for the american people. It is abouty what is best for the bottom line.

 

Well at the very least we can rest easy knowing those companies paid their fair share of taxes.

[papasmurfbell]

I get jokes.

[thundercleetz]

By the way I am not saying I disagree with Paul in that clip, especially re the military industrial complex. But he's simply not who I would take cues from. One day he is filibustering against drone usage... The next he is on Fox saying that we should use drones to catch people who hold up 7-11. He's a faux libertarian and political weasel.

Why don't you tell us how you really feel about him?

 

I would like to try and keep this topic on Syria though as opposed to debating who stands for what or who does what (in other words, my polite way of saying I respectfully disagree with you). I really think Syria is an important topic that ultimately has many interconnected, geopolitical consequences. If you wanted to you could even connect this issue to Ukraine. Everything is intertwined in this game of globalization we shouldn't be meddling in. IMO it's scary.