Is It Really This Bad?

[Spen]

Trust me, a paid for system isn't much better. Our waiting lists for many operations are as long as the Florida coastline. It almost forces you to put your hand in your pocket and go privately. For those fortunate enough to have taken private health insurance then great you get sorted in no time at all. For everyone else that has paid their taxes thinking they were covered only to find that operation they need to fix a knee or a hip won't happen for 18 months its tough shit, hope the pain isn't too bad.

 

I'm afraid the perfect system only exists in some dystopian future.

Have you been here for an extended time and used this system? If so what system do you think is better?

 

I do not think any system is perfect, but politicians here cite long waiting times and other reasons as why we should not adopt a government system. That's silly, we could try to adopt and improve upon any system, we do not have to pretend any flaws in other systems are doomed to plague ours too.

 

The Canadians I know usually say their wait times are exaggerated in stories here. Usually but not always. I know someone who was told to get a colonoscopy quickly and it took 5 months. Then again I know people who have waited for 6 months in this area to see a dermatologist.

[papasmurfbell]

I think it depends on programs. And I think the state has worked to get better at the system in general. I don't hear that issue much anymore.

 

Something has to be done about our healthcare and insurance system. What gives the insurance company the right to deny any person a prescribed treatment? Who are they to say a person is not sick enough for that prescribed by a doctor treatment?

 

It's happening to a co-workers wife right now, she was misdiagnosed last summer on a small lump on her breast, she was told it was calcium deposit. Turns out the lump was getting painful so in December she went back to the doctors, its stage 4 breast cancer. She's had the double mastectomy, and is going through chemo.

 

Because chemo kills all blood cells they prescribed a shot to boost her white cell count. Aetna denied paying for the 1100 dollar shot, because she is still not sick enough.

 

It's not sad enough to 1. Hear you have cancer. 2. Go through the operation and the shock of missing part of your body. 3. Being young as this couple are and figuring out what the future holds. You have to fear or better yet call the insurance company and plea or beg as to why the treatment you were prescribed has been denied.

 

It's a sad situation

There are those death panels we hear so much about.

[dc.]

Actually, those aren't what the death panels were originally about... It was just a gimmick.

 

In the end, there will always be the treatments not covered. But what currently unfair and unacceptable is that every plan is different and it's impossible to actually understand your coverage when purchasing. People say it's backwards, but I would have more confidence in a centralized system.

 

As for wait times, those don't bother me as in many cases they are for less than critical care. Not ideal, but it's better than a system where some people are just denied period because of income.

[RavenMad]

And that's where we disagree DC. The UK system still doesn't fund all treatments and regularly rations life saving drugs or doesn't provide them full stop because they are "too expensive". It's great that we have a free at the point of contact service but there are so many other failings. At the end of the day I think a marriage of both systems is probably the best solution but what that marriage entails is the million dollar question.

[dc.]

And that's where we disagree DC. The UK system still doesn't fund all treatments and regularly rations life saving drugs or doesn't provide them full stop because they are "too expensive". It's great that we have a free at the point of contact service but there are so many other failings. At the end of the day I think a marriage of both systems is probably the best solution but what that marriage entails is the million dollar question.

Yeah, I don't know the UK system perfectly as you do. But as I said, right now there are too many people not getting any care out any treatment in our country... I'd take a program that provides basics but leaves some items off over the opposite.

[papasmurfbell]

Actually, those aren't what the death panels were originally about... It was just a gimmick.

 

In the end, there will always be the treatments not covered. But what currently unfair and unacceptable is that every plan is different and it's impossible to actually understand your coverage when purchasing. People say it's backwards, but I would have more confidence in a centralized system.

 

As for wait times, those don't bother me as in many cases they are for less than critical care. Not ideal, but it's better than a system where some people are just denied period because of income.

I realize that. I was being melodramatic using a term that was used in a very melodramatic way. There will always be things that are not covered. The question is where the line is set?

[thundercleetz]

http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/28/politics/hillary-clinton-bernie-sanders-new-york-debate-joel-benenson/

[papasmurfbell]

If Bernie were to complain about Hillary's tone he would be accused of being sexist. So since the sexes are equal she is a sexist.

 

Also how would she deal with Putin if she is so much of a coward to be at a debate?

[dc.]

Just watched a great independent lens documentary on The Amazing Randi, who is a pretty well known magician who has focused for 40 years on debunking crock magic/sorcery being used to swindle people.

 

Two of his big, famous targets: Uri Geller and Peter Popoff.

 

And as I watched, everything about this election suddenly made sense. Because despite both being largely exposed in the 1970s, Popoff especially was literally destroyed, both guys are back to their old tricks and making money as con men.

 

As a supporter of Geller in the video said (real video from the 70s): "you have to believe first and then it becomes possible, but it will never be possible if you don't believe in it"

[papasmurfbell]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2016/03/23/apprenticeships-making-comeback/81802858/

 

 

Apprenticeships: "College without the debt"

PHILADELPHIA — A couple of years ago, Kevin Joyner’s life was a maelstrom of poor grades, school fights and a troubled home environment in a distressed neighborhood.

Today, the 20-year-old is back in school as a computer support apprentice, and his days are a whirlwind of a different sort — setting up laptops for students and teachers, replacing faulty hardware and fixing classroom projectors.

Even more impressive is that the high school graduate is near the top of his cohort of paid apprentices and on track to earn a starting salary of $35,000 to $50,000 as a computer technician when he completes the program in two years.

“I don’t learn from books,” says lanky, soft-spoken Joyner, who sports ear piercings and tattooed arms. “I have to see it. I like learning and doing at the same time.”

Joyner and the Philadelphia school district program that employs him are part of a revival of sorts for apprenticeships, which were prevalent in trades such as construction and manufacturing before a drop-off that began in the 1980s was amplified by the 2007 to 2009 recession. Blame factory automation, the offshoring of U.S. manufacturing jobs and the decline of unions, which spearheaded many apprenticeships.

But the economic recovery has at least partly replenished training budgets, and a much-lamented “skills gap” has employers struggling to hire skilled workers and willing to try new strategies, or revert to time-tested ones, to find them.Apprenticeships are blossoming again in manufacturing and construction and spreading to less traditional sectors grappling with labor shortages as Baby Boomersretire, including information technology, health care, even white-collar bastions such as insurance.

“We want to diversify," Labor Secretary Thomas Perez said in an interview. "Apprenticeships have applicability to every sector of the economy." They also can be appealing alternatives to four-year colleges that typically leave graduates with a mountain of debt and, in many cases, no clear career path, he says.

"I call it the other college, except without the debt," Perez says.

The number of apprentices registered by Labor or states rose by 27,000 to nearly 450,000 in the fiscal year ending last September, and it’s up by nearly 100,000 since bottoming out in 2011, according to the Labor Department. Estimates show a similar number of unregistered apprentices across the country.

In September, the Labor Department awarded $175 million to 46 colleges, non-profits and others to train and hire 34,000 apprentices over the next five years, helping meet the Obama Administration’s goal of doubling the number of apprenticeships between 2014 and 2019. Another $90 million is being allocated to states and non-profits to market the programs locally.

Apprentices typically receive a blend of classroom instruction, often at a community college or trade school, and on-the-job training from mentors. Tuition is usually covered by the employer or a grant. Apprentices can earn as much as $15 an hour or more and in many cases are guaranteed a job with an average $50,000 starting salary. Proponents say the programs, which are common among European high school students, can serve as new gateways to middle-class jobs, supplanting many of those erased by offshoring or the recession.

“We know this is the best way to learn a specific skill,” says Anthony Carnevale, director of the Georgetown Center for Education and the Workforce.

The Philadelphia school district program that employs Joyner, called the Urban Technology Project, began in 2005 as an expansion of an after-hours computer club at a school with a 40% dropout rate.

“We’re targeting disconnected youth,” says Edison Freire, who co-founded and leads the program, which mostly serves minorities from disadvantaged upbringings. “We’re trying to create opportunities” for 18-to-24-year-olds besides retail and fast food jobs.

High school graduates complete a one-year pre-apprenticeship in computer support at Philadelphia schools, receiving a $12,100 stipend and a $5,730 subsidy for college classes. They move on to a two-year apprenticeship in the schools or, in some cases with a local employer, that pays about $25,000 a year. The program — funded by the school district, city agencies and non-profits — also helps participants earn computer certifications. Thirty-eight of its 53 graduates have been hired by the school district or local employers.

In an era of skimpy education funding, the schools also benefit. This year, 41 apprentices and pre-apprentices are helping just eight professional technicians serve more than 200 schools, shaving computer repair intervals from weeks to a couple of days, says Melanie Harris, the district's chief Information officer.

The city of Philadelphia plans to use part of its $2.9 million grant from Labor to expand the apprenticeships to include software development, networking and cybersecurity, addressing the region's shortage of technology workers. In the fourth quarter, local employers struggled to fill 10,400 IT openings, according to city workforce agency Philadelphia Works, which helps finance the program.

Joyner officially is a pre-apprentice who’s still learning the ropes, but he performs much the same work as an apprentice at the Science Leadership Academy, where all 500 students and 24 teachers have laptops. Earlier this month, he toiled in a small workshop in a corner of a technology classroom beside apprentice Stephen Jones, setting up a laptop for a student and delicately reinstalling the motherboard and hard drive of a newly repaired computer.

“He was like a sponge,” says Marcie Hull, Joyner’s mentor and a technology teacher. “Anything I threw at him, he could do it.”

Joyner learned how to tinker with computers by watching online videos. He eventually wants to work in cybersecurity, adding, “I feel like it’s something that’s only going to be growing.”

Mentors sometimes gently prod apprentices as they go through their paces. As Emma Ortiz, 26, copied files onto a new computer for a school district employee, Marie Levine, a technical support engineer, said, ”Did you do all his files … and his printers?”

Ortiz, who moved to Philadelphia from Puerto Rico to earn a computer science degree, spent a year in college but couldn’t find a job to pay her bills or $28,000 student debt until she began the apprenticeship program. “I was about to go back to Puerto Rico,” she says.

Philadelphia-based Springboard Media, which sells and repairs Apple products, has hired four of the school district's apprentices. “The kids in the program don’t have the same sense of entitlement I’ve seen” from college graduates who expect higher salaries, Springboard President Everett Katzen says. “They’re more, ‘I want to work hard and learn — point me in the right direction.’”

Most U.S. apprenticeships aren't as rigorous as European programs, which emphasize precise learning modules, even in the workplace, Georgetown's Carnevale says. In the U.S., "It's more casual, more experiential — apprenticeship lite," he says, comparing many to internships. Yet he says they still bridge gaps that have many community colleges turning out graduates who don’t have the skills to meet local employers’ needs,

In Lebanon, N.H., for example, a 15-month-long apprenticeship program at theDartmouth-Hitchcock health system custom trains pharmacy technicians, medical assistants and medical coders for its workplace.

“We take them right to our classes and teach them our processes,” instilling “a sense of engagement to our mission,” says Sarah Currier, the health system’s director of workforce development. “They know the people, the machines.” Newly hired medical workers from other hospitals often don’t have “the same level of competence.”

Dartmouth-Hitchcock began the program in 2014 because of a perennial struggle to hire coders — who translate medical procedures into codes for insurance — in a rural area with a shrinking population but a growing clientele of older residents. “We see this as way to build a sustainable workforce.” Currier says.

The 15-month-long apprenticeship includes three months of classroom instruction, has turned out about 100 employees and pays $14.50 to $19 an hour, some of which is funded by a Labor grant. Many participants were previously unemployed or underemployed.

Apprentices are even making their way into buttoned-down fields such as insurance. In January, Swiss commercial insurance firm Zurich, another federal grantee, began what it says is a first- of-its- kind program to place 25 people a year into two-year apprenticeships in claims adjustment and underwriting through 2020, following the model it uses in Switzerland. Apprentices split their weeks into working at Zurich’s Schaumburg, Ill., headquarters and taking insurance and other classes toward anAssociates degree at Harper College.

“Believe it or not, not everyone grows up wanting to go into insurance,” Zurich’s North American CEO Mike Foley says wryly. “We think this may create a different talent pool” and train apprentices “in the Zurich way of doing business.”

Dane Lyons, 37, who was logging 55-hour weeks as a car salesman, signed up for the program to spend more time with his two young boys and secure a more consistent income stream. He earns $30,000 as an apprentice and will start at $40,000 when he graduates.

“I’m getting an education, Zurich is paying for that, and I’m getting experience working,” he says. “It’s an incredible deal.”

This needs to be done much more.

[dc.]

Reminds me, I had a further student come back to visit a week ago. He's a soph in college. Since day one, he's been an NSA "apprentice" of some sort that I didn't know existed. They are paying his full tuition, he works summers with them, guaranteed job upon graduation, already technically an employee even, so he even gets a stipend during the school year so he can focus on his studies...

 

If only private corporations took on the burden of helping educate their workers... Too many want "experience and expertise" but pay intro positions as if you've got a high school diploma and no more.

[papasmurfbell]

That is a great idea. They will get a better product doing it that way.

[dc.]

That is a great idea. They will get a better product doing it that way.

 

Yeah - I mean, in trade schools that's still kind of the system... a quick intro to the basics, then you are out in "apprenticeship" honing skills in these partnerships that benefit both sides. Medical field is somewhat the same as well, of course, as both teaching and early career jobs are really considered more training than official position or job.

 

It's also of course the way so much of the world used to work - get your education, to whatever degree that was - find a job with that requirement and they will coach you up. I think it also played a huge role in people wanting to stay at a company their entire life.

 

But in so many other fields today, we do exactly the opposite. Now, some of that is undoubtedly the cultural shift where people leave companies frequently even when things are good - we are job movers. I guess no one wants to invest in a 3-5 year employee the same way they would want to invest in a 20-30 year employee. But there's got to be some middle ground.

[papasmurfbell]

In the article I posted the one employer said that college students were entitled wanting really high pay. I think that is a misunderstanding of the situation probably. The college student most likely has a bunch of student debt and is desperate to make enough to pay it down asap. The apprentice is willing to take less bc that expense is not an issue.

[dc.]

In the article I posted the one employer said that college students were entitled wanting really high pay. I think that is a misunderstanding of the situation probably. The college student most likely has a bunch of student debt and is desperate to make enough to pay it down asap. The apprentice is willing to take less bc that expense is not an issue.

 

That's certainly part of it. I also think the term "entitled" is thrown around too much.

 

If that employer went to look for a new job, would he be "entitled" in asking for a bit more money because he has more education and experience? To bring back to Donald Trump, one of the classic things that bothers me about him (and many people): when Donald negotiates he is "just sticking up for himself" ... but when a protester disagrees or a union demands wages or Apple says they want something, well, those people are "sad, losers, unAmerican, everything that's wrong with the country."

 

Back to the education topic - it's classic which side do you see it from. It's all perspective. Entitled or asking for your due? Depends on which side you come from. After this program the apprentice gets to about $19/hr. Would he be entitled if he went to a new job and wanted the same? From their view, "I can get another guy and teach him this stuff in three months and he'll take $14-16/hr... then $17-18 when he's done. Why pay you more?"

[thundercleetz]

Reminds me, I had a further student come back to visit a week ago. He's a soph in college. Since day one, he's been an NSA "apprentice" of some sort that I didn't know existed. They are paying his full tuition, he works summers with them, guaranteed job upon graduation, already technically an employee even, so he even gets a stipend during the school year so he can focus on his studies...

 

If only private corporations took on the burden of helping educate their workers... Too many want "experience and expertise" but pay intro positions as if you've got a high school diploma and no more.

Few thoughts: that is a very annoying part of jobs listings: experience and expertise for crap pay. Can't speak to the jobs you are referring to, but in my experience I've seen: too many people with that specific skill set applying for the job. Sometimes the job isn't that good in the first place, and while it may require an expertise, it isn't a premium expertise (i.e. working in a finance call center. The employer would obviously like finance experience but you're still in a call center).

 

That does suck if you have spent your career building that skill set and the industry goes stale. We've seen it happen though in our own local economy the past twenty years. It's devastating.

 

Take coding for example: that Bloomberg article I posted stated these workers have been coding since they were children at summer coding camp. That skill gap won't be closed by an apprenticeship. Same goes for engineering, bio-med, nursing, etc. These skills require advanced degrees. The expertise needed is legitimate.

 

As far as private corporations taking on the burden, some do to an extent. Starbucks implemented free tuition through Arizona State's online platform (which is very solid, I considered it for B-school, you get the same degree as on-campus). Many corporations have management programs for recent graduates (transferable skills). Plumbing and engineering still have apprenticeships. Sure you have to get your apprentice license first, but the cost is nowhere near a college education.

 

Expertise nowadays is so much on titles, CPA, MD, JD, etc. That is how your skills are appraised, and a company won't be able to teach you those things.

 

Also have to consider: our unions are not as strong as in Germany where training is more common place. Take plumbing for instance. Your company pays for your training, you take those skills and leave to start your own business. From what I remember of studying Germany's economy, workers either cannot move or don't have the incentive to.

 

Hypothetically, I wonder what would happen if your former student left the NSA program right after he graduated. I'm guessing he'd have to pay back some of the costs of education/training, but some companies are too small to enforce contracts (or through inefficient government bureaucracy it's not enforced).

 

Speaking of the example you presented: companies/government training future workers by paying for college education, or other expensive training, brings up a dilemma of initial evaluation. Maybe grades and extra-curricular activities are qualifiers, but what about trade jobs where school isn't a good identifier? Hard to evaluate without some base level of experience. The case you presented is further complicated since it's a government agency, and ultimately that training and education is paid by tax payers. I am not taking a side, as someone has to work those jobs, just presenting the dilemma in my head right now.

[papasmurfbell]

[dc.]

Yeah - I agree with pretty much everything you said. Certainly not offering any final solutions, just nitpicking at a system that just doesn't seem to work.

 

Re: qualifications - I agree that many times it is a problem of supply and demand. It goes back to what we said about probably too many humanities degrees and too few technical degrees. It's just frustrating to see so many jobs listed as degree required and X years required... but pay the same as jobs that don't require those things. As I said, there was a time when companies would take on a skilled employee with that first level of qualification and really train them up to the higher levels. That's not happening as much now - and fault is probably on all sides.

 

Re: the NSA program - I had the same thought. "Man, to pick a senior in HS or a freshmen in college and just go all in... wow, risky." Though, I think there are some pros to the argument too. First, if the student bombs in school, I'm sure ties can be cut pretty quickly. He's in computer engineering, I believe... if he's not cutting it, in school or in summer internships... I'm sure the program goes away. And second, as you said, I am sure NSA (and companies) are looking at the cost of taking a CompSci grad with no specific training to their programs vs building their own CompSci grad. I have no doubt the latter is cheaper and has a higher success rate. He's going to come out of school as 21/22 and be exactly what they want and need... as opposed to so many others coming out at 21/22 and still needing a few more years of fine-tuning.

 

Anyway... it's all a mess. But I do put a lot of "blame" (not quite the right word) on corporations moving away from a system that once really trained and supported a workforce to now treating it more and more as a set of widgets.

[papasmurfbell]

Also with the apprenticeship.I bet there is a contract locking the person in for a certain amount of time. A college grad gets that NSA job and in 9 months use that resume entery to go get a better job just as they are starting to get their footing there. Now you have to hire and train a new person.

[dc.]

Side note: Trump campaign manager charged today with minor battery in that reporter arm grab. Police release CCTV video from venue that does it clearly. Minor, but clear.

 

And the narrative now from Trump and supporters is that "that's not a crime!"

 

First it was he didn't do it, she's a liar. At other times it was that she must be mistaken. Some even claimed early video evidence was inconclusive and showed someone else grabbing her. Lewandowski, the manager, even called her disgusting, delusional.

 

But now all that is forgotten. No minds to be changed, though. Sure, he grabbed her, but cmon, it was so minor! That's not criminal. Chill out....

[papasmurfbell]

The thing is it is a crime. Cops arrest for that small grab all the time. Now the law and order set get it back right at them.

[dc.]

Yeah, but I would argue that in this case the cover up is more costly than the crime. Lewandowski originally said, off record, that he thought she was someone else. Combine that with video that shows it wasn't a huge push/pull and it goes away with an apology and scolding.

 

Of course, as implied above, that's assuming anyone has decency or cares. The attacks on her continue even though Trump and co have been saying for weeks it never happened at all. Now the story is she deserved it.

[papasmurfbell]

The cover up is always worse.

[papasmurfbell]

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Audit-shows-UC-admission-standards-relaxed-for-7215364.php

 

 

Audit shows UC admission standards relaxed for out-of-staters

You think MD schools do this?

[dc.]

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Audit-shows-UC-admission-standards-relaxed-for-7215364.php

You think MD schools do this?

 

I wouldn't doubt it. As long as they have their mandated 75% in-state or whatever, I don't think they should necessarily seek to go way beyond that. It's a tough question - but having some out of state voices, ideas, etc is good and valuable.

 

My bigger problem is something you alluded to earlier. Kids come here from NY, live on campus for a year, move to an apartment and change their residency and then say, "I'm in state." Allowing the university to accept more out of state students but also costing them (and me!) money. It's not supposed to happen that way and there is a records check that is supposed to nab students who do that, but what I have found is that friends from out of state have never been questioned. Meanwhile, a friend from in-state who moved to MD as a senior in HS with her dad for his military job... well, she got denied and flagged for it. And another student got similarly dismissed for grad school when they moved back to MD.