My Bet: Dave Out Tomorrow

[thundercleetz]

Is anyone really that intrigued or excited by Valentine anyway? This doesn't really hurt my feelings.

 

I thought he would have been a good fit, but it is not the end of the world. It hurts a lot less than when Girardi turned the job down. Now that I think about it, if we are going to have a complete overhaul of the coaching staff, we might as well wait to the end of the season and just start fresh next year. Let the young pitchers (Arrieta, Tillman, Matusz, and Bergesen) take their hits and get their experience now and hopefully they can hit the ground running next season.

[cravnravn]

Is anyone really that intrigued or excited by Valentine anyway? This doesn't really hurt my feelings.

 

 

It should hurt your feelings, what manager wants to come to this mickey mouse operation?

[papasmurfbell]

So that quote is a 'no' to a job not even offered to him? Vague logic at best.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5319218

 

Former Texas Rangers and New York Mets manager Bobby Valentine, now an analyst with ESPN, has withdrawn his name from consideration for the managerial job with the Baltimore Orioles, Valentine confirmed Wednesday.

 

Is that a good enough "No" for you?

[thundercleetz]

Showalter is considered the front runner now. I think he would be the ideal guy for the job.

[dc.]

Reports are that Valentine is taking Marlins job.

 

I like Showalter too. A lot more than Wedge.

[thundercleetz]

Reports are that Valentine is taking Marlins job.

 

I like Showalter too. A lot more than Wedge.

 

Wedge to me is no different than a Mike Hargrove. I don't think his style is what we need to get the most out of our young players. Here is a good piece from the NY Post stating why Showalter is perfect for the O's:

 

3UP: Valentine and Showalter

 

As for Showalter, his hiring in Baltimore is far from a sure thing. He is fighting a reputation in baseball of being controlling and paranoid, and even if I plead Showalter guilty of both of those charges, I pretty much can guarantee the Orioles cannot hire a better candidate.

 

Look, even if everyone agrees Showalter will have a short shelf life with any organization because he wears people out, I would say the Orioles should run that risk because in three stops Showalter has proven himself excellent at fumigating a place and making it better when he left than before he arrived. And the Orioles need a fumigation since they are in the midst of their 13th straight losing season and are on pace to lose 117 games in a year in which the organization believed it was going to turn a corner.

 

Except it is hard to reverse a horrible culture, and the Orioles have a horrible culture. The team has lost for so long that too many folks in the clubhouse and front office have squandered the ability to see good from bad and – more important – what is acceptable from what is not. This team needs a sheriff to separate right from wrong, and I cannot imagine anyone better at that than Showalter.

 

It is easy to forget after all the success what a horrible mess the Yankees of the early 1990s were. The 1990 team had the worst winning percentage for the Yankees in 77 years. Showalter came in and – from Day 1 – a sign all but went up that the nonsense was over. In concert with then GM Stick Michael, Showalter began evicting the players he knew were not just a drain on the talent of the roster, but the psyche, as well.

 

He established a way the Yankees would play and what kind of player would be part of that effort, and if you were there in 1992 – and I was as the Post’s Yankees beat guy – you saw a team finish 10 games under .500 (76-86) and yet play in a way so much different than the recent past. That team – Showalter’s first – lost because of a talent gap not because of indifference or lack of hustle or lack of preparation. That offseason the Yanks signed Jimmy Key, Paul O’Neill and Wade Boggs, mixed them into what was now a better foundation and the organization has not had a losing season since.

 

Showalter was not around for the championship years with the Yanks and was fired before the Diamondbacks won in 2001. But he was the quarterback who got those organizations into the red zone. Again, it did not end pretty for him in New York, Arizona or Texas. Has Showalter learned anything about tempering his Type-A persona, his belief – a belief Valentine has, too, by the way – that he knows best? I don’t know. What I do know is that Showalter and Valentine often did know best.

 

Maybe Orioles GM Andy MacPhail would have to draw up constrictive language in a contract that clearly defines what areas Showalter could and could not influence. Fine. But he should hire Showalter because he needs a sheriff. He needs someone to come in and separate right from wrong; to do with Baltimore what Showalter once did with the Yankees: Put a once proud organization back on the right path.

 

Showalter might not be perfect, but he is perfect for this job.

[Spen]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5319218

 

 

 

Is that a good enough "No" for you?

 

That would be a lot closer than the huge jump to conclusion you made a few weeks ago. Its still turning down a job that doesnt seem that he was ever actually offered. Oh well, at least he was 'polite' enough to interview here.

[papasmurfbell]

I think he said where he stood the day after the interview. We will see who wants this thing before to long. I think they try to make a hire by the end of July.

[Spen]

I think he said where he stood the day after the interview. We will see who wants this thing before to long. I think they try to make a hire by the end of July.

 

 

I know you do. You said as much when you claimed his quote backed up that he turned down the job. You used the comments then as some kind of proof to your theory that no established manager would take this job. A job that it doesn't seem was ever offered to him and after an interview you stated you thought he took just to be polite.

And as I said before I feel that is taking a huge leap in logic.

[dc.]

First: http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/blog/2010/06/showalter_acknowledges_interes.html

 

Showalter is actually saying he is interested. Outright. Not in code. And I love the "you earn this" attitude, not the "I deserve it" attitude.

 

 

Second: Knowing that Valentine took the Marlins job now, it actually makes me doubt even more that he was "simply not interested" in our job. He is good friends with the Marlins owner (Loria?) and something tells me he had inside info that the job would come his way if Gonzalez were fired. So, simply not interested in the O's job or knew a different offer was coming with near certainty?

[papasmurfbell]

First: http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/blog/2010/06/showalter_acknowledges_interes.html

 

Showalter is actually saying he is interested. Outright. Not in code. And I love the "you earn this" attitude, not the "I deserve it" attitude.

 

 

Second: Knowing that Valentine took the Marlins job now, it actually makes me doubt even more that he was "simply not interested" in our job. He is good friends with the Marlins owner (Loria?) and something tells me he had inside info that the job would come his way if Gonzalez were fired. So, simply not interested in the O's job or knew a different offer was coming with near certainty?

 

 

http://www.stamfordadvocate.com/baseball/article/Valentine-out-of-running-for-Marlins-job-541651.php

 

STAMFORD -- Bobby Valentine confirmed Tuesday night he is no longer a candidate for the vacant Florida Marlins' managing position.

 

He lost out on the sure this also.

[thundercleetz]

Showalter seems to be the guy:

 

Twitter / Buster Olney

 

Source: The Orioles met again with Buck Showalter this weekend; Showalter is the heavy favorite to be the O's next manager.

 

Ken Rosenthal on Twitter

 

Sources: #Orioles negotiating w Showalter, close to terms. Will be in uniform sometime after ASG. Announcement will not be made until...

 

...after All-Star festivities. Commissioner's office frowns upon teams upstaging showcase events by announcing major news. #MLB

 

It is about time we do something right.

[dc.]

Love the pick.

[thundercleetz]

I wonder what this means?

 

Buck Showalter is in talks with the Orioles and appears likely to become their next manager assuming a contract can be worked out, sources confirm.

 

Showalter, the ESPN analyst and former manager of the Yankees, Diamondbacks and Rangers, interviewed for the Orioles job weeks ago, and is said to be meeting with them again now, according to league sources.

 

Showalter is said by sources to have laid out a plan for a major turnaround for the Orioles in his first interview via large-scale revamping. The Orioles are in one of the most difficult spots in sports, having to compete in a division with the Yankees, Red Sox and Rays

 

The latest talks were first reported by Foxsports.com.

 

 

 

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/baseball/mlb/07/11/showalter.orioles.ap/index.html#ixzz0tTFAjqrz

 

I like it!

[dc.]

I am curious too...

 

I have a feeling it has something to do with no longer babying or playing to the veterans simply because they are veterans, and continuing to flood the team with younger players/talent and showing them a new path... that's Showalter's MO.

 

I have seen many people (O's fans and others) saying that Showalter "hasn't done anything elsewhere" or "is a bad coach." I couldn't disagree more. But like Davey Johnson and many others, I think his "shelf-life" is short because he is not afraid to push buttons. He is not going to make friends with guys like Julio Lugo who are known for (at times) their lack of effort and professionalism. He's going to ruffle feathers.

 

Honestly, I just wish we could get this done so that Friday he could show up... but apparently not that fast.

[thundercleetz]

I am curious too...

 

I have a feeling it has something to do with no longer babying or playing to the veterans simply because they are veterans, and continuing to flood the team with younger players/talent and showing them a new path... that's Showalter's MO.

 

I have seen many people (O's fans and others) saying that Showalter "hasn't done anything elsewhere" or "is a bad coach." I couldn't disagree more. But like Davey Johnson and many others, I think his "shelf-life" is short because he is not afraid to push buttons. He is not going to make friends with guys like Julio Lugo who are known for (at times) their lack of effort and professionalism. He's going to ruffle feathers.

 

Honestly, I just wish we could get this done so that Friday he could show up... but apparently not that fast.

 

I think you hit the nail on the head, dc. Showalter is a notorious no non-sense guy. Like you said, he is going to have a short "shelf-life" because he does ruffle feathers. For as many people who have said Showalter "hasn't done anything" or is a "bad coach", there are just as many (or more) people who rave about his managerial and organizational skills. Showalter is very well respected around the league and is the type of guy we need. He is going to do whatever he can to win, and if that means benching veterans or demoting young guys, he will do it.

 

I have heard rumors that Showalter in that first interview outlined his plan for the organization. He said he wants his own staff (with Flannigan as the pitching coach), and he wants to establish a certain style of play from the top all the way to the bottom of the organization. If you ask me, this is what the Orioles have been lacking. To me, our AAA, AA, A, etc. teams are isolated. There is terrible communication between the teams, such as guys having no idea if they are being promoted or demoted and players being giving different hitting instructions at different levels. We have had too many guys hit absolute brick walls going from Bowie to Norfolk, or from Aberdeen to Frederick. That should not happen. It is a complete joke that we only have had only two homegrown hitters in the past decade that have achieved any sort of success (Markakis and Roberts).

 

You always hear the "next man up" analogy in football, well teams like the Red Sox, Yankees, and Angels do that in baseball. The Sox sign an average hitter like Adrian Beltre and he comes in and hits at an .907 OPS. Heck, Orioles-reject Darnell McDonald can come in there for 70 games and post an .740 OPS in CF for the Sox. Not much worse than what Adam Jones is giving us. The Yankees lose Soriano and then Robinson Cano comes out of nowhere and becomes one of the best hitters in the AL. Freakin' Nick Swisher can come in there on a cheap two-year deal and post a .900+ OPS. And then a nobody Brett Gardner fills in for Johnny Damon and hits over .300, a near .400 OBP, steals 40+ bases, scores 100 runs, and plays excellent defense. Why can't we get players like this?

 

I have a friend who played in the Angels organization and he said from day one of Spring Training Mike Scioscia introduced himself to every player and told everyone that the Angels are a family and there is a certain way you play as an Angel. AAA guys interacted and worked with A guys, it is a very competitive atmosphere. That is why the Angels win, there is very good communication between their minor league teams. Every player is given a road map of what they need to do to advance, and what to expect at the next level. I think this is what Showalter wants to do with our minor league system. How will Andy McPhail work with Showalter? McPhail is just as much of a control freak and doesn't like to be told what to do.

[Spen]

I like the sounds of this.

 

Odlly enough as bad as the Orioles have been, if my math is correct, if they play 500 the rest of the season they will finish 2 games better than they did last season.

[papasmurfbell]

If they finnish 6 games under 500 the rest of the way they will have the same record as last yr.

 

If this does go down I will be shocked. I did not think anyone with cache would want this mess. I agreed with Mike Greenburg this morning.

[dc.]

You always hear the "next man up" analogy in football, well teams like the Red Sox, Yankees, and Angels do that in baseball. The Sox sign an average hitter like Adrian Beltre and he comes in and hits at an .907 OPS. Heck, Orioles-reject Darnell McDonald can come in there for 70 games and post an .740 OPS in CF for the Sox. Not much worse than what Adam Jones is giving us. The Yankees lose Soriano and then Robinson Cano comes out of nowhere and becomes one of the best hitters in the AL. Freakin' Nick Swisher can come in there on a cheap two-year deal and post a .900+ OPS. And then a nobody Brett Gardner fills in for Johnny Damon and hits over .300, a near .400 OBP, steals 40+ bases, scores 100 runs, and plays excellent defense. Why can't we get players like this?

 

Well, sometimes that's as much luck and circumstance as it is "organization."

 

Boston saw Mike Lowell come to life there... now Beltre... Jason Bay too (though, he wasn't as "slumped" as those two). That's the Green Monster and Fenway.

 

McDonald was given up on not only by the O's but by (I think) 6 other teams.

 

Swisher was a good player in Oakland, becoming a very good player in NY - but not really out of NY.

 

 

 

Anyway... I'm not making excuses or trying to dis these guys. I just think that, at the major league level especially, it helps to have the right pieces around you. Beltre was putting up his numbers this year from the 6 or 7 hole most of the season. Cano and Gardner spent plenty of time at the bottom of very good lineups. McDonald too. Gardner and McDonald, especially, were not exactly tearing up the minors and "needed" to be called up. They just came up at the right time and had the guys around them to help. That's HUGE.