thundercleetz

Very good post yager! I agree with a lot of it. The only part that I really disagree with is the developing players. For ever James Harrison there is a Bart Scott, Kelly Gregg, Dannell Ellerbe, Ed Hartwell, Adalius Thomas or Jared Gaither (yes, for as lazy as Gaither is he is a very good football player and we could certainly use him). We have had more than our fair share of practice squad players turn into solid starters for us. And we have let the guys go that we did not need. By the way, James Harrison was on our practice squad for all of about a week, the majority of the time he was a representative for our team in NFL Europe. He never really got to practice with us or be at our facilities. Sure, Pittsburgh does a great job of getting a lot out of its young guys, but I believe that is more so from drafting the right guys as opposed to actually developing them. Their environment is no more competitive than ours, if a guy is going to play, he’s going to prove he can play himself. What happened to early picks from the past three drafts like Limas Sweed, Kraig Urbik, Keenan Lewis, and Bruce Davis? We didn’t see much of Jason Worilds , the Steelers second round pick, this year either. And who have we over extended on our team? Pittsburgh re-signed Harrison, we re-signed Suggs. We tag Ngata, they tag Woodley. They re-up Polamalu, we re-up Reed. James Farrior is still starting at MLB, Ray Lewis is still starting for us. They let Joey Porter walk, we let Bart Scott and Adalius Thomas walk. We have done just as good of a job of letting players walk as they have. This is where I think you hit the nail on the head. The problem is not developing our talent, it having the draft picks at our disposal. I don’t disagree with the Anquan Boldin trade, nor do I disagree with the Josh Wilson trade, I think these are very good trades. Where I think Ozzie has gone wrong over the past few seasons is not trying to hit the homerun, but making stupid free agent pick-ups that make us ineligible to receive compensation picks. Take the 2009 free agency for example: we let Bart Scott, Jason Brown, and Jim Leonhard all walk for big free agent deals. Especially with Scott or Brown, we could have definitely received a third round compensation pick. So what does Ozzie do? He signs freaking LJ Smith, who catches a grand total of two passes for us, and because of the in-and-out rule we are ineligible for any compensation picks. This is the key point here: The Steelers and Pats don’t sign washed-up free agents to replace players that have walked, they use late round draft picks or UDFAs thus allowing them to receive compensation picks. Look at the amount of compensation picks the Steelers and Pats have had the past three years, look at ours. Sure the Steelers and Pats have whiffed on a lot of third, fourth and fifth round picks, but since they have so many they have hit on a lot as well. This is where Ozzie needs to improve. I agree, and I think that starts with getting rid of the players like that already on our team, namely Derrick Mason. While I do think Nnamdi Asomugha would make our defense elite again, I am not sure if I want to give a Reavis-like deal to a 30-year old CB. You’re right, it would tie us down. Even with the few things Ozzie does wrong, I still think we are right up there with the teams you mentioned: Philly, Green Bay, Pittsburgh, New England, and Indy. Over the past three years our record compares very favorable with these teams and we have won more playoff games than Philly and New England, and just as much as Green Bay. We are very close to the Super Bowl, we are right where we want to be as a team. A good draft and free agency class this year and we are right back in Super Bowl contention.

Building through the draft is all fine and dandy if you have a lot of picks, we simply do not. There is no reason why you cannot build both through the draft and free agency. You don't think the guys Ozzie targets in free agency may have been guys he targeted in the draft when they came out? And what players has Pittsburgh traded and gotten draft picks for? They let the guys who they can survive without walk, and they re-sign the guys they need. Same with Indy. And Philly trades and builds through the draft, but they have had some stud free agent pick-ups over the years that they have tried to get to put them over the top (TO, Kearse, Vick, Samuels). You say it's hard to argue with the results these teams have posted, tell me, how has our record compared to Philly, GB, and Pitt over the past three years? We are right up there with them. It is not like we are doing terrible. In short, I think the point is if we want to win the Super Bowl we need to get better at drafting and better at signing players who fit our system. Pittsburgh has been successful because they have drafted stud players. They get a Pro-Bowl linebacker like Woodley in the second round, we get linebackers like Paul Kruger, Dan Cody, and Sergio Kindle (although Kruger is slowly turning into a solid starter). They have drafted studs in the past few draft like Pouncey, Hood, Wallace, and Mendenhall. All Pro-Bowl calibur players. Our past two draft classes have been fairly weak. The fact is that we need to get better at drafting.

I am not expecting anything from the guy, but he would be a nice surprise. There is no doubt he has the talent to be an impact player. We could have used him last season.

Great trade. Wilson really played better as the season went on and he got used to playing in our defense. I really hope we can re-sign the hometown guy.

Lets hope that Pagano really lobbies for the guy. Players supposedly love Pagano, so hopefully he had a good relationship with Asomaugh when he coached him in Oakland. I truly believe that Asomaugh would turn this defense back into an elite one.

Oh boy, is that opening the flood gates or what? So when this new CBA gets done, would it be safe to say the NFL is going to drug test every player on that first day the new CBA is effective? :biggrin:

You completely missed my point, I was not out to prove that the dropped passes are a bigger problem than Joe finding and hitting open targets. My point was, as I stated, we had numerous critical drops in crunch time which had a huge impact on our season. That is not debatable. Yes Joe finding and hitting open targets (maybe not even open receivers, but putting the ball in a spot where your guy can make a play) is a problem, but so is the fact that Joe has been sacked twice most out of any QB over the past two seasons and Cam's misuse of our offensive players' skill sets. In other words, this is not all Joe's fault as ravinmaniac suggested. If you fix two out of any of those three problems, the offense is going to be dramatically better. I don't care if Joe doesn't progress at all, if you give him better blocking, a better run game, and better use of his receivers by Cam, this offense is going to be better. Believe me if you think Cam is best using our players to our talents, I will say the players think otherwise. I have heard some behind the scenes stuff about Cam that would make any Ravens fan uncomfortable. You don't hear any of the players speaking out against Joe like our players did against Boller or any of our other QBs. Now the stuff they are saying about Cam, well I am just going to say the players are not happy at all Cam as a coach or with the direction of the offense and it has nothing to do with Flacco.

That is correct, I would much rather those drops not be in the endzone though. The Mason dropped TD on the slant against the Pats would have sealed that game (did I mention there was a low shotgun snap on that play as well that Joe had to dig out of the ground?), the McClain drop against the Saints would have sealed that game, the Boldin drop against the Steelers in the playoffs which would have given us a comfortable lead in that game. Then there's the Housh drop on the fourth down that ended our season. If you want to throw in some other important drops that lost us games, there's the ridiculous Mason drop from 2009 against the Steelers in the endzone that would have surely won that game and the Clayton drop against the Pats which would have put us in great position to win that game. Everyone says we can't beat the elite teams but Joe sure isn't being helped in crunch time by his own guys. Then there's also the fact that Joe has been sacked the second most time out of any QB the past two years, which is pretty ridiculous considering the amount of two tight-end or full backfield sets that we run. We are hardly running a Mike Martz spread offense out there. I realize I am getting off topic from Harbaugh's contract signing, I am just tired of people blaming Joe for everything when he has his guys around him not producing either. I thought ravinmaniac's jab was uncalled for.

Or until the offensive line decides to block or until the receivers stop dropping touchdowns and first downs in the bread basket.

Before the end of the season I would have been 100% for this move. I like Harbaugh, but a lot of the insider stuff I have heard lately has made me extremely uncomfortable about this team moving forward. Harbaugh has done a great job of keeping this lockerroom together, even when things looked extremely grim in our 9-7 year in 2009 and when we were barely holding on for life this past year after a bunch of closer-than-should-be games. However, I am not sure if he would be able to hold things together in a 7-9 year, or God-forbid, worse. I just think there is too much of an ego that would rub players the wrong way. I hope I am wrong though and this is the year Harbaugh takes that next step and starts beating those elite teams. However, with Cam Cameron still the OC, I am not very optimistic. However, the fact of the matter remains that Harbaugh is better than at least 80% of the coaches in the NFL and he is better than anyone currently on the market.

Hm, I never would have guessed Oher knew how to play football.

Trading back in the draft didn't help us much with Kindle, Cody, and Dickson. Sure, it's all fine and dandy to say you're going to trade for more picks and build through the draft, but the draft is no sure thing.

I'd switch Guerrero and Lee. Have Lee hit third and Guerrero fourth. Other than that I love the lineup.

Where is our deep threat? Manning, Rogers, Ben, Brees, Ryan, and all the great QBs have one. And why is Cam running possession receivers like Boldin, TJ and Mason 30 yards downfield every play? That's Cam's fault that the receivers are being used poorly. It's not Joe's fault that Boldin dropped the TD in the Steelers game or that TJ dropped the first down pass on fourth down. How about that dropped TD by Mason in the Pats game which would have sealed the game? It's not all on Joe, Cam and the receivers are just as much to blame. There is no evidence of that. Geo already proved that the runningback receiving numbers are already a wash when it comes to Joe's stats. Maybe if Boller had better receivers he might have put up better stats, but Boller also had one of the best running games in the league to work with. I don't see any evidence of Cam doing a good job of using players to their strengths. I saw a power run game when our line was weak, I saw sluggish receivers being sent 30 yards downfield when Joe was left to die by the pass rush waiting for these guys to get open, and I saw horrible pass protection schemes on the line. Where were the screens to Boldin? Where were the quick slants to counter the blitz? Where was the no huddle offense to counter the blitz? Where is the route set up? There are no pics, screens, or slants to free up other receivers. I completely disagree with your assessment of Cam. I actually agree with you here. I think what we have seen from Joe is pretty close to what we aough tre going to get. What we disagree on is whether Joe is being used to the best of his talents. You say most QBs can find targets somewhere when the defense rushes three and gives the QB lots of time, that all goes back to my point of route set up. Look at the good passing teams in this league. thrThe Steelers, Packers, Colts, Pats, all these receivers know how to come back to the ball when their routes are over. All these receivers know how to find an open spot in the zone. When have you ever seen a Raven receiver come back to the QB? When have you ever seen a Ravens receiver fight his butt off like Hines Ward to fight through a zone to get open? It doesn't happen with the Ravens. That's the problem right there. It also doesn't help when you have Cam sending slow receivers thirty yards downfield. I guess we were watching different games because I clearly saw Joe go through progressions before the checkdown. Now, obviously there were times that Joe held on to the ball too long, that happened a lot. I just think there is a lot more that Joe could do. He posted a 93 QB rating in an offense that didn't use him to his strengths. Get him in an offense with more quick slants and better protection against the blitz and he is only going to put up better numbers. Joe had many TD drops this past season. I see no reason why he couldn't throw 30 TDs. That is far from average. I completely agree with you though on the WR corp. The Steelers model is the way to go. Let Boldin be the Hines Ward who does all the underneath stuff, then draft a bunch of young, fast receivers to press the secondary and keep them honest.

Lets get Yanda and Ngata re-signed next!

With the Steelers getting big contributions out of mid-to-late round picks like Sanders and Brown, we need a fast guy like Reed to step up at receiver next year. I know Harbaugh likes Reed a lot, give him some time at WR!

Spen, I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree and see what happens. Arguing is pointless, we have both stated our points and no one is saying anything new. I have seen progression in Joe each year, you haven't. The numbers suggest progression. We have different opinions on Cam's offense and its effect on Joe. We will just have to see what happens. I will say this, I believe Joe is much better than an "average" QB. The numbers say that and when comparing him to the rest of the league, it is certainly the case. You probably disagree, but we will just have to see. Spen, I just have one question to ask: if Joe is just average and hasn't progressed since his rookie year, and Cam's offense protects QB's and inflates their stats, why didn't Joe put up these types of numbers in '08 and '09 that he posted in '10? Especially in '09 when he had a much better running game and offensive line.

The numbers would suggest differently... and those QBs have much better weapons than Joe does. If it was this easy, why doesn't every team in the league do this with their QB? Why couldn't Boller or any other of our QBs post a 90+ QB rating? I am sorry, I do not buy this at all. Sure, stats do not tell the whole story but a three year body of work that compares among the best is no fluke. Why does a QB like Jason Campbell and Mark Sanchez still put up sucky stats with the best run games in the league? You certanily could be right, maybe Joe's weaknesses are magnified in such situations. I tend to disagree. From what I see Joe is much more comfortable in a spread offense with multiple receivers, preferably working out of the shotgun. He does still get confused, but even the best QBs do though. I think it's debatble whether or not he can "read the field" when most of Cam's routes take 5 seconds to develop with our dirt slow receivers and Joe is running for his ass after 2 seconds. You are right, Joe does hold onto the ball too long and his mechanics do get sloppy at times. However, his mechanics were very good down the stretch, and I think Zorn really helped with the mechanics. The bottom line, a lot of this stuff is fixable. Where I think Joe really improved is his decision making. Last year and his rookie year Joe would make a couple of boneheaded throws a game, he did not do that this season outside of the Bengals game. He was a very smart decision maker. Flacco really never looks check-down first like he did his rookie year. As stated, Cam's routes took forever to develop, so while it looks like Joe checks down fast at times, nothing was open a good amount of time. I stand by my opinion, Joe would fair much better in a WC offense where he can throw more quick slants and get the ball out of his hands quickly. A guy like Ben holds on to the ball way to long. Obviously Ben's mobility helps him a lot, but he is also helped by Bruce Arians masterful use of routes in his offense. Guys set picks for each other, receivers come back to the QB when the route is finished, guys know how to find open spots in the zone. Cam does not do this with our receivers. QBs like Ben and Rogers do make tough throws, but they have a lot of easy big ones out there because of the route set up.

I don't agree with that just because Joe is galxies better than anything we have ever had. What I am doing and everyone else is doing is comparing Joe to the other just below elite QBs I mentioned: Rivers, Brees, Ben, Rogers and maybe even Ryan. It like comparing someone who got an A on a test to someone who got a B or B+. Sure, Joe isn't on the level, but he is very good. I still think he is closer to an Eli Manning than a Jon Kitna. That is why people see Joe as a good QB, because his number compare very favorably to the great QBs. Good point on the playoff games, I certainly agree, this is where Joe has room to improve. However, I don't see how Cam is protecting Flacco at all. First, the Ravens had the 28th worst yard per carry average in the league. Second, Flacco got sacked second most out of any QB in the league. How is that being protected? If you want to see improvement in Flacco's game look at his numbers last year compared to this year (88.9 QB rating vs 93.6), then look at the team rush numbers (4.7 vs. 3.8). He did better essentially working with less.

I know you love to criticize Joe, and some of your criticism is certainly justified. However, calling Joe a journeyman QB is absolutely ridiculous! Did you forget how bad we had it with Dilfer, Banks, Boller, and Wright? Shaun Hill, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Kerry Collins, Jason Campbell, and Jon Kitna are journeymen quarterbacks. I really can't believe people are forgetting how bad the QB situation has been the past decade. These QB's couldn't sniff what Joe has done in this league his first three seasons. So Flacco isn't in the same class as Manning and Brady. He isn't even in the same class as Rivers, Brees, Ben, Rogers or maybe even Ryan. But that doesn't mean he isn't a very good QB in this league. Flacco to me is similar to an Eli Manning. A very good quarterback who can win you a Super Bowl, the consistency of an elite QB just isn't there. I'll take a 93 QB rating every year. And that is taking into account a piss poor offensive line, no deep threat, no running game, and several dropped TDs. I can name at least 20 teams that we have a better QB situation then. I do agree with you, I am not sure how much better Flacco can get. I still think he can improve in areas such as consistency with his footwork and getting more bulk to withstand the defensive rush. However, a guy can only get so good at being natural with his decision making. We can't force Joe to throw the ball more over the middle or hit receivers in stride, but a WC offense that required Joe to throw more quick slants would definitely help him more. Also, we have never had a legitimate deep threat to utilize Joe's arm. All of the elite QB's have a deep threat, Joe does not. In other words, we could do a better job of utilizing Joe's talents. I think he could get into that next tier of great QBs.

Sure, Joe could have played better, but once did you ever hear our players come out and attack Joe? In the past our players have been very quick to point out QB play as a weakness on this team when we had Boller or whoever was at QB. Now when the players vent it is about the playcalling and the offense in general. I hear Cam is not very popular with the players. Joe has the full support of his teammates and while he could play better, so could the rest of the guys on offense as well. Something isn't clicking, and you have to wonder why the OC can't get things on track with all this talent. Joe is probably saying just venting the frustration that all of his teammates want to vent. I hear Joe really gained some respect from his teammates for coming out and speaking his mind. I don't think Cam is a player favorite. This is definitely going to be a big storyline this offseason, the Ravens have decided not to comment on what Joe said. This is a clear attack on Cam Cameron if you ask me:

I think this is a case of simply Joe being Joe. Joe is a blunt honest guy who speaks whatever he is thinking. Most of the time he just doesn't have much to say. However, it seems like they struck a cord here and Joe suddenly has an opinion. Joe probably doesn't see this as speaking out, he just sees this as he is speaking honestly as always. He has just never had anything really note of saying up until now.

I agree with Millz, if you have a guy that is that easily influenced he is probably not a player you want on your team in the first place. Plus, there is a big difference between influencing off-the-field habits (such as work ethic) and influencing a general me-first attitude. Vlad is known to be a very hard worker who puts time in the batting cage and is known to be a fun loving guy in the clubhouse that everyone gets along with. If Vlad wants to go out there angry and prove a point by hitting 30 home runs, let him, it benefits the team. Quite frankly, I would love it if a guy like Wieters grew a pair and went out there and started mashing. Before Buck took over, I heard the guys in the clubhouse were giving Wieters a hard time for all the hype he received. It was only when Buck took over and ordered them to stop that Wieters started hitting a little better. I just see the risk with Vlad very low even if he doesn't want to be here. Number one, he doesn't speak much English. The odds that he is telling a young guy like Wieters what to do is low. And the odds that any potential bad attitude rubs off on the young guys on our pitching staff, such as Arrieta, Matusz, Bergesen, Tillman and Britton are even lower. The bottom line, baseball is like any other sport. If you are winning games, everyone will be happy. If you are losing, there are going to be disgruntled players on the team no matter what. If we are terribly out of it by the trade deadline, trade guys like Vlad and Lee. No big deal.

After 13 losing seasons, I really don't care nor do I think it matters. If our front office was worried about ruining the young players with older guys only playing for a paycheck, they wouldn't have signed Derrek Lee. Who do we have to ruin? The only thing Markakis and Roberts know is losing. As for the rest of the young guys, maybe it would do them some good being motivated by a pay check to play better, I mean it's not like Wieters or Jones aren't going to bolt as soon as they hit free agency. Baseball isn't the team sport football is, if a guy wants to play for a paycheck, go for it. It can benefit the team. And isn't this the reason we signed a big name, no nonsense guy like Buck? When Buck took over this clearly became Buck's team.

Is that really anything worse than what we have had here the past 13 seasons? At this point I'm hardly worried about a guy coming in and being a bad role model. If Vlad give us his production from last season and helps us play above .500 baseball, he can do whatever he wants in the clubhouse and I'll still be thrilled. Our lineup would with Vlad will be the best lineup we have had in 13 years: 1. 2B. S- Roberts 2. RF. L - Markakis 3. 1B. R - Lee 4. DH. R - Vlad 5. LF. L - Scott 6. 3B. R - Reynolds 7. CF. R - Jones 8. C. S - Wieters 9. SS. R - Hardy That is a solid 1-9 lineup. More importantly, it takes pressure off of Markakis to be the #3 hitter allowing him to hit in his more natural #2 spot, and young guys like Jones and Wieters can hit lower down in the lineup with less pressure. Please sign Vlad! On the flip side, if the Vlad and Lee signings don't workout, you simply trade them at the trade deadline and get some more prospects. As bad as a team we have been in this hopeless AL East, you really can't lose by signing Vlad.