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A win is a win is a win is a win...


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A bunch of media folks are making it out to be that because we were at home and Ben was out and Troy was out and blah blah blah that apparently we "should" have won this game and the 3 point win only bodes poorly...

 

Shut it.

 

It was far from a perfect game. But I'll continue to put blame on an offense that can't find a rhythm or gameplan to save its life over a defense that, despite some rocky moments, looked generally good.

 

Honestly, my biggest defensive complaint is gameplanning as well. I was saying it pre-game; while the talking heads were going off about blitzing Dixon, I said sit back and let him throw. Sit back, make him throw the ball, and let our guys make plays - because they can if they have to. Freak him out with weird looks and see what he does. We figured that out eventually..

 

 

Anyway... for all the talk of 'we shoulda won' ... so what. I never heard Michaels or Collinsworth mention that Suggs wasn't on the field. Or Washington (not that many would call that a huge loss). But for 4 quarters we got bombarded with excuses for the Steelers as if our team was in prime shape. Hardly.

 

We won a tough game. Both Bengals games were losses where we only gave up 17. This time we win giving up 17. And we should win giving up 17 most games. Done and done.

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Hey they won. I use our competition as a baromiter of what we can do. If Troy or Ben had played I think we would have lost. This team just has major holes. We are not complete or really close to it.

 

Holes indeed. I dont know about major but they are holes for sure:

 

Secondary - replace Wash and Foxworth. keep Webb. Groom a replacement for Reed.

 

LB- granted Suggs is out but we dont have a viable pass rusher or tackling machine. Need to groom another replacement for Ray. Ray is making too many tackles after a 5-7 yd pickup-see stats from last night. Gooden aint cuttin it. We are kiddin ourselves if we think our current LB corps (even with a healthy Suggs) is cuttin it.

 

DL- got to get replacements for Gregg and Pryce, sign Ngata. Keep Edwards for depth. Need to pickup up a pass rushing DL or DE.

 

WR- we are 2-3 years too late on this. Got to acquire or draft a BIG, FAST playmaking WR for the first time in Ozzie's regime. Pick up a second one for depth and or to replace D Will or Clayton.

 

KR/PR - if we dont pickup a WR who can double as KR/PR (aka DeSean Jackson), need a legit kick or punt returner.

 

These are the holes as I see it. If we fill half these holes with top notch players, we become a 10 to 11 win team next year. if we do better, we will secure more wins. if we do nothing, we stay an 8-9 win team.

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Hey they won. I use our competition as a baromiter of what we can do. If Troy or Ben had played I think we would have lost. This team just has major holes. We are not complete or really close to it.

 

You simply can't hypothesize on that, though. Or, even if you can and want to, you can't put any weight in the 'could have.'

 

The Ravens didn't play a perfect game. Far from it.

 

The Steelers didn't either. And even with Ben, there's no way to say they would have made more or fewer plays. There's also no way to say how we would have responded.

 

We can only evaluate what actually happened as it happened with the players involved.

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Holes indeed. I dont know about major but they are holes for sure:

 

Secondary - replace Wash and Foxworth. keep Webb. Groom a replacement for Reed.

 

LB- granted Suggs is out but we dont have a viable pass rusher or tackling machine. Need to groom another replacement for Ray. Ray is making too many tackles after a 5-7 yd pickup-see stats from last night. Gooden aint cuttin it. We are kiddin ourselves if we think our current LB corps (even with a healthy Suggs) is cuttin it.

 

DL- got to get replacements for Gregg and Pryce, sign Ngata. Keep Edwards for depth. Need to pickup up a pass rushing DL or DE.

 

WR- we are 2-3 years too late on this. Got to acquire or draft a BIG, FAST playmaking WR for the first time in Ozzie's regime. Pick up a second one for depth and or to replace D Will or Clayton.

 

KR/PR - if we dont pickup a WR who can double as KR/PR (aka DeSean Jackson), need a legit kick or punt returner.

 

These are the holes as I see it. If we fill half these holes with top notch players, we become a 10 to 11 win team next year. if we do better, we will secure more wins. if we do nothing, we stay an 8-9 win team.

 

I agree with you for the most part. I don't think Foxworth is going anywhere, he would be a solid #2 corner if we had a #1 guy to match up against opponents' #1 receivers. At the very least, Fox would provide solid depth with Webb and a new guy starting. I think we can all agree that Foxworth is heads and shoulders better than Carr, Walker, and Washington.

 

Gooden played very hard-nosed last night, but he has been pretty soft this season. He does not like to fill, and takes bad angles in pursuit. Maybe last night could indicate a change for him. I like McClain and Ellerbe a lot, but we need to find that stud replacement for Ray pretty soon. So linebacker is going to be a big need pretty soon. We need pass rushers that can win 1-on-1 matchups. Even Suggs has been poor at this. Suggs is still too valuable as his play against the run and dropping into zones is very good.

 

The defensive line is not in as bad of shape. Kruger is going to get bigger and be able to play as a 3-4 end. Of course we have Ngata and Edwards has been a very solid starter this season. Then through in McKinney, and we are fine. I don't think this is that big a need.

 

I completely agree with you on WR. Not drafting a receiver really hurt us. Teams like the Giants and Vikings just kept drafting receivers until they got productive guys. Even if we draft a rookie next year, how likely is it that guy will be able to contribute right away? At this point, we need to nab one of the elite free agent receivers.

 

All in all, the holes are not as bad as everyone thinks. I think this team could be shored up awfully quickly. Every team has holes. We just need to do a better job of playing disciplined football.

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Times in the NFL, they are a changin'.

 

I have read a lot of laments in the Pittsburgh media about their #1 defense being unable to stop the Ravens on 3rd and long. The reality is, the NFL today (through their rule changes / enforcements since 2005) is a league where it is almost illegal to play defense. In light of this new reality, one should realize that almost all games are won on offense.

 

Having said this, kudos to John Harbaugh for going for the first down (instead of punting) on 4th and 5 in the 4th quarter. I have yet to see a defense in the NFL in the last 2 years that is capable of winning a game. DO NOT put the game on the shoulders of your defense anymore. They are highly likely to fail, as has been mandated by the competition committee.

 

A good defense can still be a very valuable commodity, maybe the main wedge to separate a good team from a champion, but the load these days must be carried by every offense. It is so easy to pass anymore that it is irresponsible to expect a defense, any defense, to stop the opposing offense on a consistent basis.

 

A few years back punting late in the 4th to pin your opponent back and expecting a 3 and out stop would have been the odds favorable strategy, but no longer. Today, if you give the ball up, it is foolish to expect it back anytime soon. I think it is impossible to protect any defense these days too much (i.e. protect them with a ball control offense).

 

With the current rules, no defense can be expected to win a game - the offense must be the engine of victory...however, it is more likely now than ever (IMO) that a great defense will be the margin that separates a good team from a great one.

 

What does this have to do with "a win is a win is a win"? I don't know, I am rambling. But this seemed like a good thread to reply to. In general don't complement our QB and receivers too much, they are doing the easy lifting. In addition, don't harsh on the defense too much, their job is near impossible.

 

This week was a good win, but to go to OT against a team that is missing their best defensive player (Aaron Smith, IMO), their starting LG (Chris Kemoeatu) as well as Polamalu and Rothlisberger, at home, is troubling. But, hip, hip, hooray for the Ravens (and Paul Kreuger), their season is not over. A win at Lambeau on Sunday will be epic.

 

I think this team can do great things down the stretch with a powerful run game and a good defense (especially when Suggs returns) as well as our improved coverage units on special teams (they have been dynamic this year, what a job against Cribbs a few weeks back). I am looking forward to one of the best Decembers in Ravens history.

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This week was a good win, but to go to OT against a team that is missing their best defensive player (Aaron Smith, IMO), their starting LG (Chris Kemoeatu) as well as Polamalu and Rothlisberger, at home, is troubling. But, hip, hip, hooray for the Ravens (and Paul Kreuger), their season is not over. A win at Lambeau on Sunday will be epic.

 

 

Nice post Pump..

 

But hey we were without our best D in Suggs, and Washington is out (not saying much) and lets not forget we lost pro-bowl ST'er, Femi's Brother, he was a great ST'er and a decent LB'er.

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Nice post, Pun'kin. Haha. ;)

 

 

I still say, though, regarding all of this "situational" analysis of the win (they were missing _____, we were at home_____) and the "doesn't bode well..." that it doesn't really matter.

 

Pitt did a lot of things right. So did the Ravens. Period. Both did plenty wrong. Theres no way to know in a division game how that will change with new players.

 

Last year, how do you think Pitt and their fans were feeling after a close game in Week 3 against a rookie quarterback and two young offensive lineman? They barely scrapped by, but got the win. And that was at home for them! Primetime!

 

But when push came to shove twice more... they still got it done.

 

Scores are just numbers. There's no way to just value Troy+Ben+Smith+Home Game = 18 points. Shucks!

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Nice thread....and good points pumpkinhead...

 

Ravens/Steeler games are always ugly...it's hard to come out looking good so the win tells the tale. That's what you hang your hat on.

 

At the game in the 4th quarter I quoted that line "You play to win the game!" to my brother. I was thinking of the Ravens offense.

 

They had to take some big play chances...some risk/reward plays...conservative was not going to do it.

 

and they did...going for it on 4th and making it broke the stalemate. Momentum shifted.

The steelers were having trouble throwing. The Ravens front 7 on D seemed fresher due to continuous rotation of personel (they need to do this from here on out)...and the O seemed to be wearing them down.

 

The Ravens had 'more' in OT.

 

Looking ahead this offense has to "play to win the game". Not recklessly, but that attack and confidence attitude needs to be there going into Green Bay.

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varaven45

 

Holes indeed. I dont know about major but they are holes for sure:

 

Secondary - replace Wash and Foxworth. keep Webb. Groom a replacement for Reed.

 

LB- granted Suggs is out but we dont have a viable pass rusher or tackling machine. Need to groom another replacement for Ray. Ray is making too many tackles after a 5-7 yd pickup-see stats from last night. Gooden aint cuttin it. We are kiddin ourselves if we think our current LB corps (even with a healthy Suggs) is cuttin it.

 

DL- got to get replacements for Gregg and Pryce, sign Ngata. Keep Edwards for depth. Need to pickup up a pass rushing DL or DE.

 

WR- we are 2-3 years too late on this. Got to acquire or draft a BIG, FAST playmaking WR for the first time in Ozzie's regime. Pick up a second one for depth and or to replace D Will or Clayton.

 

KR/PR - if we dont pickup a WR who can double as KR/PR (aka DeSean Jackson), need a legit kick or punt returner.

 

These are the holes as I see it. If we fill half these holes with top notch players, we become a 10 to 11 win team next year. if we do better, we will secure more wins. if we do nothing, we stay an 8-9 win team.

 

Yeah yo about have it. The WR corps is horrid. It is a major hole. The DB's are a hole that is a little more plugged now than a few weeks ago.

 

We are stuck with Suggs. I think we will regret that deal in time. I hope I am wrong. I think Ray is going to turn the corner fast and will out stay his welcome. I do like the young LB's in McClain and Ellerbe. I would like to see if Gooden can be turned into a SS. I think he will be a much better player there. I see Kruger being turned into a LB.

 

I would also add TE to your list. Heap is on his last legs, Smith is useless, and Drew may have ended his career before it started.

 

You simply can't hypothesize on that, though. Or, even if you can and want to, you can't put any weight in the 'could have.'

 

The Ravens didn't play a perfect game. Far from it.

 

The Steelers didn't either. And even with Ben, there's no way to say they would have made more or fewer plays. There's also no way to say how we would have responded.

 

We can only evaluate what actually happened as it happened with the players involved.

 

Of course I can not prove we would have lost if Ben or Troy played. I just feel that they played so close that if either of them had been playing they would have accounted for at least 3 pts. That would have given the Squeelers the win.

 

BTW nobody can prove that if Stover was on this roster we would have any better record than we do now.

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Yeah yo about have it. The WR corps is horrid. It is a major hole. The DB's are a hole that is a little more plugged now than a few weeks ago.

 

We are stuck with Suggs. I think we will regret that deal in time. I hope I am wrong. I think Ray is going to turn the corner fast and will out stay his welcome. I do like the young LB's in McClain and Ellerbe. I would like to see if Gooden can be turned into a SS. I think he will be a much better player there. I see Kruger being turned into a LB.

 

I would also add TE to your list. Heap is on his last legs, Smith is useless, and Drew may have ended his career before it started.

 

Disagree on Heap. He continues to be limited as much by his role as a blocker as anything else. When he gets out into routes, he has lots of luck finding the ball.

 

Agree on WR and DB - though, I think DB is better than it was just weeks ago, as you said. I still think, defensively, there's something to be said for letting Mattison really find his feet, especially in terms of teaching the guys we have.

 

Suggs will be interesting. Even if Ray drops off, I don't know that we'll regret the deal. I am sure that he is man enough to know when to retire and save this team the money we need. I don't think he will want to be on the field if he can't play the way he's used to.

 

Of course I can not prove we would have lost if Ben or Troy played. I just feel that they played so close that if either of them had been playing they would have accounted for at least 3 pts. That would have given the Squeelers the win.

 

BTW nobody can prove that if Stover was on this roster we would have any better record than we do now.

 

Of course you're right about Stover. You won't find me arguing that we would have won any game with him here.

 

But I still think putting a point value on any single player is just silly. In most cases, hypothetically, I would agree that Ben is worth at least 3 points over Dixon. But, I never expected Dixon to be worth 14. I think his 14 was a bit of luck, a bit of a fluke. So is Ben worth 17 - the three you give him and 14 that Dixon maybe shouldn't have had? There's too many variables and questions.

 

If that argument seems weak (which I don't believe it is), I still return to this. In 3 games last season, as Crav pointed out, the Ravens lost by a combined 15 points. After the first game, where the Ravens lose by 3 in OT in Pittsburgh, there had to be plenty of people saying "In X weeks, in Baltimore, with a rejuvenated Joe Flacco, etc etc, that game is all Baltimore's!" And they were wrong. It's simply not how football and especially not how rivalry games work. I honestly believe you could have played the 2nd string squad for Pitt on every side of the ball... and the game would have looked very similar.

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I have to agree with DC to disagree with papasmurf w/r/t Heap. He is still quite effective (IMO) at TE, being that the TE has the dual blocking / receiving role.

 

He is slower than he was earlier, but has good hands and is a big soft target, plus he is still very strong (will break weak tackles), fights to stay in bounds and turns quickly upfield. He is a player with a lot of guts (maybe too much, he always scares me the way he leads with his head...I call him the Rammer) and leaves it out on the field. As a blocker he is above average, the effort is there but the physical ability is not as strong. Still, he does a better job at blocking (IMO) than nearly all other pass catching TE's in the NFL. I think Heap has a few more years yet on his old legs, at least I hope he does.

 

Which leads to an interesting question: where does Heap rank all time as a Baltimore TE? Is he better or worse than Shannon Sharpe? How about John Mackey? How about Glenn Doughty?

 

Personally, (and help me out on the great TE's I am forgetting) I put them as: 1. Mackey, 2. Heap, 3. Doughty, 4. Sharpe (mainly b/c he only had 2 seasons with us, as big an impact as he had he is still a Bronco to me).

 

Sorry again to post not very thread specific, but DC's post got me thinking about Heap.

 

Another topic for a later day, who are the greatest players at each position in Baltimore NFL history? Maybe we could gin this up for the 60th anniversary (coming up in 2013 if your ignore our unfortunate 12 year hiatus) of Baltimore football.

 

p.s. I am a big Suggs fan, mainly b/c he is so dominant in the run game and a very good pass rusher. He is a top 5 talent that we got with the 10th overall pick, at times a man amongst boys out there. He blows TE's and OT's up so consistently and prevents stretch runs to his side so well that I often laugh watching the replays. In the pass rush, his speed and angle seem quite good but he seems held back (in terms of stats, i.e. sacks) by our inability to collapse the pocket (which causes the QB to step back in to the arms of the outside speed rusher).

 

Put him in a vacuum as a DE and there is no better today in the NFL (IMO), at least in terms of recognizing a DE has responsibilities in both pass and run defense. I don't think we should regret his deal, a truly great and dominant player for his era.

 

p.s.s. and lastly, (thank God, I didn't think that guy would ever shut up) nice points by Crav about not worrying so much about the Ravens squeaking one out versus the Steelers. As he so adroitly pointed out, they squeaked by us in similar cirmumstances last year in Pittsburgh then went on to become world champions...there is no reason we can not do the same. Through fire comes steel. It all starts in Green Bay.

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Suggs will be interesting. Even if Ray drops off, I don't know that we'll regret the deal. I am sure that he is man enough to know when to retire and save this team the money we need. I don't think he will want to be on the field if he can't play the way he's used to.

 

I do not think Ray will retire whenthe time is right. I think he will hold on until he is a shell. For one he still believes he is playing the best of his career which is self delusion. But I am sure it is a pride thing and he can't bring himself to admit to slowing down.

 

Also on the other hand is Ray is looking for the cash. He didn't get the deal he thought he would get thos past off season. He isn't as set as he would have hoped this deal would have made him. He has wasted a lot of cash so now he needs money for the end of his life.

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A win is a win is a win..

 

When you read the previews for this MNF game you see things like this..

A victory over a quality opponent in this contest could go a long way for either team. Green Bay is 2-1 all-time versus the Ravens and won the last meeting 48-3 at Baltimore on Dec. 19, 2005. They did since when?

 

Typical Ravens. And typical Boller even when he actually kills GB on mnf he is not getting the respect.

 

Heap 2 TDs, Hymes, Clayton, Jamal and AD also with TD. Btw Boller for 3TD-0int and Favre/Rodgers 0-3.

 

For this bs I hope we will destroy them again.

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