papasmurfbell Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 It's not the saves. It's 80+ innings on a team without more than one starter that can go 7 every time. Hunter gets saves? Fine. Who pitches the 8th? O'Day? Fine. Who pitches the 7th? Play it out and we get to a significantly worse arm. Meanwhile, I see no signs they will actually spend the money saved - at least not on value - when they throw cash at Reimold and Pearce. JJ was 100x more valuable than those two... You want to talk $? The money from the Os says only 5x. I get the $$ issue (but then, why are the As willing to pay it given their notorious stinginess?) ... But I hate the return and see little sign we will make any move to really say "This is why we need that cash." In other words, this doesn't seem to be Ed Reed vs an entire defensive payroll.You can't spend money for the sake of it. Come on Guys, its only Dec 4, no way the O's wont make a move, We've competed for the past 3 years, I think the Angelos days of 97 thru 2010 are gone..It has only been 2 yrs. Will see. Unfortunately, the days of Angelos wont be gone until Angelos is gone. btw- I am not looking for us to make a hair brain move like the Yanks for Ellsbury.But how about some legit FA pitcher, closer and big stick in the lineup ? That is why I will not go back until that family is out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
varaven45 Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 You can't spend money for the sake of it. It has only been 2 yrs. That is why I will not go back until that family is out.Can't say I blame you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thundercleetz Posted December 4, 2013 Author Share Posted December 4, 2013 Awful move. Money? Maybe. But we were willing to drop 1m on Reimold yesterday. Totally worth it. Can we replace the saves? Maybe. But the innings at large? Questionable. Who is out there? Who do we have? No one. It certainly won't lead us to any big name. Worse, we get a crappy 26yo 2b who has regressed each year and even the As don't want? Just sad. My opinion, Gausman and Hunter are more than capable of being closer. Hunter might be a concern on short rest, but he really thrived last year in relief when rested.Gausman has the 1-2, fastball-offspeed stuff to be a closer, but I love his starting potential. That said, my initial reaction to the trade is disappointment. I do have to give DD credit, every move he has made as O's GM has been good. So I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt until we see the whole offseason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cravnravn Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 It's been 3 years when Buck took over at the mid point of 2010, we were the hottest team in the majors, and it has carried over since then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubberRaven Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 ain't happenin Crav...nothing has changed other than our pitching coaches Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papasmurfbell Posted December 5, 2013 Share Posted December 5, 2013 It's been 3 years when Buck took over at the mid point of 2010, we were the hottest team in the majors, and it has carried over since thenThen it is 3.5 yrs. There were OK things in the half of the season. The full 2011 was not good. So really it was just 2012 and 2013. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cravnravn Posted December 5, 2013 Share Posted December 5, 2013 Well, its still early, the Yankmees just opened the market way, way way overpaying for Ellsbury, 7 year 153 mil???? Come onnnnn Winter talks are next week, so Ill wait and see OH and I have been mistaken on Price, he is a Fa in two years, the Rays are looking to trade him this year..And it wont be to a team in the east... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papasmurfbell Posted December 5, 2013 Share Posted December 5, 2013 Well, its still early, the Yankmees just opened the market way, way way overpaying for Ellsbury, 7 year 153 mil???? Come onnnnn Winter talks are next week, so Ill wait and see OH and I have been mistaken on Price, he is a Fa in two years, the Rays are looking to trade him this year..And it wont be to a team in the east...That is great. Ellsbury will be a disaster contract just like Arod. Davis and Weiters are FA's at the same time. The O's need to do the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForceEight Posted December 5, 2013 Share Posted December 5, 2013 What about Norris as the closer? He has a very good fastball, and it's not even his out pitch. He has trouble going six innings as a starter anyway, so what's the harm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papasmurfbell Posted December 5, 2013 Share Posted December 5, 2013 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuzuFlG_33Q&list=UUiWLfSweyRNmLpgEHekhoAgWhat I have been echoing. These contracts will be horrible in the back end and then you are screwed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cravnravn Posted December 5, 2013 Share Posted December 5, 2013 What about Norris as the closer? He has a very good fastball, and it's not even his out pitch. He has trouble going six innings as a starter anyway, so what's the harm?I have no problem with Norris as the closer as long as Matusz remains the set up man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForceEight Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 I don't think Matusz will ever be a set up man. He's a good left-handed innings-eating arm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dc. Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 I'm in Peter Schmuck's camp on this one. It's got Angelos' fingerprints all over it. From Duq saying they would tender JJ a contract and he would be the closer next year (just a month ago) to Angelos, when asked, giving his standard line about "no, it wasn't me... but I should add we're not the Yankees!" Schmuck's article today even notes that Angelos (and his sons) now have an office in the warehouse again. First time since MacPhail took over. Hmm. You can't spend money at random. But this isn't money at random. We can discuss other closers, fine. Hunter won't do it, though. He blew just as many leads as Johnson and put even more in jeopardy for others to give up. He's also a bigger fly ball risk and more wild. I like him, but he will struggle. I also won't consider Gausman in that role. Just silly right now with his skills and upside. The point remains that you can replace the closer but you still have innings to fill somewhere and we don't have anyone to fill those innings. The team is weaker right now without Johnson. Can we fill that void? Sure. Can we fill it AND still have money to another move? Doubtful. But ultimately, it comes down to this - if that $10m is going to buy us something worthwhile, then fine. Maybe it's a legit DH (though, Buck doesn't like DH-only type players). Maybe it's a legit starter (but, it's not enough to do that). Maybe it's a veteran 2B (makes this move make even less sense?). Maybe it's a way to sign Davis or Wieters (but again, 10m won't really make that possible). So if the question is $10m on Johnson or... a series of cheap fill-ins like Casillas, Reimolds, Weeks, Pearce, etc... I take Johnson. Meanwhile, Crav, if you are waiting on a "big move" - I would love to know who you think out there is a "big" acquisition that fits our price range and our needs. Because I see a lot of mediocrity. And I see a whole lot of nothing happening this off-season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
varaven45 Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 Ain't no big move happening; mediocrity to follow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cravnravn Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 Meanwhile, Crav, if you are waiting on a "big move" - I would love to know who you think out there is a "big" acquisition that fits our price range and our needs. Because I see a lot of mediocrity. And I see a whole lot of nothing happening this off-season. Well, my theory got shot, I was always under the assumption that Price was a FA this year, and down inside I thought Angelos would open the purse strings and be a major player in getting him..Price will be traded this year, Zona & the Cubs are the two being mentioned. Who knows what our price range is? were we not a major player in the Tex sweepstakes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cravnravn Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 Yesterday I spoke with my Yankee customer who is so pissed off that his Yanks spent 238 million dollars on position players, rather then pitching.. It was nice to hear that NY accent in full throttle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dc. Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 We were not really major players in the Tex sweepstakes. Despite what we've been told. Media has long confirmed the O's simply followed their usual MO - they underbid majorly, ask for a counter (usually don't get one), and then say, "Well, shucks, we tried!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papasmurfbell Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 Well, my theory got shot, I was always under the assumption that Price was a FA this year, and down inside I thought Angelos would open the purse strings and be a major player in getting him..Price will be traded this year, Zona & the Cubs are the two being mentioned. Who knows what our price range is? were we not a major player in the Tex sweepstakes?And I would say it was great that Tex went up to NY. His contract has been really an anchor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papasmurfbell Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 We were not really major players in the Tex sweepstakes. Despite what we've been told. Media has long confirmed the O's simply followed their usual MO - they underbid majorly, ask for a counter (usually don't get one), and then say, "Well, shucks, we tried!"Yeah go through the motions to make the fans happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
varaven45 Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 As Bill Parcells once said, If "they want you to cook the dinner, at least they ought to let you shop for the groceries".In our case and in the FA market, its clear that Angelos isn't letting anyone buy squat and, even if he did, the cupboard's pretty dang bare orits prohibitively expensive for this organization. Essentially, the fan base wants a steak dinner from a decent grocery store but you cant get it shopping at 7-11 ! That makes it a no-win situation for Duquette and Buck and frustrating as heck for the fans. And that puts us right back to developing talent within the farm system (a la Tampa Bay). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papasmurfbell Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 As Bill Parcells once said, If "they want you to cook the dinner, at least they ought to let you shop for the groceries".In our case and in the FA market, its clear that Angelos isn't letting anyone buy squat and, even if he did, the cupboard's pretty dang bare orits prohibitively expensive for this organization. Essentially, the fan base wants a steak dinner from a decent grocery store but you cant get it shopping at 7-11 ! That makes it a no-win situation for Duquette and Buck and frustrating as heck for the fans. And that puts us right back to developing talent within the farm system (a la Tampa Bay). That is so well stated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papasmurfbell Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 The O's cannot be lured into these insane 10 yr $275 mil deals. If moronic teams want to throw money away then let them. The O's need to build from within and trade guys strategically. I would offer Manny a 10 yr deal right now though.Maybe they could get him to ink it for $120-150. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robjr83 Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 Cano gets 10yrs 240 mil.... see ya Manny/Weiters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thundercleetz Posted December 6, 2013 Author Share Posted December 6, 2013 What about Norris as the closer? He has a very good fastball, and it's not even his out pitch. He has trouble going six innings as a starter anyway, so what's the harm?Good call looks like the O's are considering it. http://www.rotoworld.com/player/mlb/5296/bud-norris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
varaven45 Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 Cano gets 10yrs 240 mil.... see ya Manny/WeitersWe can let Weiters and his lofty .229 BA out the door. Not so with Machado; can't let him walk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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