Good Read....Colts/Ravens

[thundercleetz]

Not one penny was from mds budget to build the ATM, it was all raised through the lottery. They should of went the extra step, let's not forget it's located a stone's throw from the water..water + concrete + steel = replacement within 15 years, check the ATM already has had repairs done to it

The technology wasn't there at the time is my point. The Texans had the first retractable roof stadium in the NFL and that opened in 2002. The only other alternative would have been to build an ugly dome and a retractable roof that takes an hour to retract and malfunctions all the time like the Toronto Blue Jays dome.

 

And papa is right the lottery raised the funds last time, next time it's anyone's guess. A state funding initiative, regardless. M&T's maintenance has been relatively small compared to other stadiums on the east coast. And the work that has been done has been on Bisciotti's tab. The Eagles have already pumped over $100M into their stadium and that opened after M&T. Either way M&T will be in line for a major renovation in 2023. Ravens are a first class organization and I'm sure Bisciotti will want to continue along in a first class facility in line with the rest of the league.

[cravnravn]

The stadium authority is still in existence right? They did it once I'm positive they will do it again, people will still buy lottery tickets

[cravnravn]

The stadium authority is still in existence right? They did it once I'm positive they will do it again, people will still buy lottery tickets

[Spen]

true that we were probably eventually going to get a new team but Modell didn't hijack the Browns and bring them to Bmore. Cleveland had shots and built other things first. I understand that the book you read may have shone light on similarities but 95 % of what you read concerning the two moves tell you that irsay was unstable and tried to strong arm the city and state into his desires. Memorial wasn't falling apart and the city was beginning to lay plans to refurbish the Inner Harbor but it wasn't the same deal as Cleveland. The O's were in the same stadium so it's not like the city treated them better. Modell tried to wait his turn and he just couldn't. And he and the league did right by Cleveland and left colors and history to start anew in Baltimore. Did Irsay even consider that? I doubt it. I've seen his drunken rants and heard him slur 'I said I wouldn't move the G-- DAMNED Team!' Only he did that very thing in the cover of night like a thief. No these are different stories.

Any reasonably unbiased account of the Colts move and the Browns move made them sound similar. I just mentioned that book because it was the best one I read. One isn't a hero, one isn't a villain for the moves, both are shades of grey. And I agree about Irsay. He was an ass and inept as an owner. But if Art was a better businessman in the 80s and 90s the Browns never move.

 

As for the stadium, I disagree too. I had many fun times at Memorial, but it was an outdated facility in the 80s. It was OK for baseball, barely, but for football it was horrible compared to the newer stadiums of the day. Irsay was all about the sky boxes. Other stadiums had them and the money went straight into the owners pocket so then all the owners wanted them. The city's plan to retrofit them into Memorial was a joke. I realize this wont be a popular opinion but the city of Baltimore is as much to blame for the Colts move as Cleveland was to the Browns move. Both teams wanted (or needed depending on who you listen to) and both cities wouldn't (or couldn't depending on who you listen to) build them one. Its really that simple. I remember the arguments then too, the fans were against a new stadium. The city and fans played hardball and lost.

 

Now I cannot blame the city and fans too much because the game was new then. Deep down people didn't really think the team would move. The fans were pretty apathetic about the team then, half empty stadiums made the move that much easier to happen.

Edited March 29, 2014 by Spen

[Spen]

I might be naive but the newer stadiums are so much better nowadays, I can see their life spans being far greater than the ones built 50 years ago. Sure there will need to be improvements and changes, but I would think most of the new one would last a long long time. Maybe not, who knows what the new ones will have in 10 years that suddenly all the owners will want.

[cravnravn]

Spen I 100% agree with you, I was a season ticket holder from 1969 til they left and to go to a game with 47,000 no shows, well the writing was on the wall

[cravnravn]

I might be naive but the newer stadiums are so much better nowadays, I can see their life spans being far greater than the ones built 50 years ago. Sure there will need to be improvements and changes, but I would think most of the new one would last a long long time. Maybe not, who knows what the new ones will have in 10 years that suddenly all the owners will want.

It's built no different then our homes, you put a roof on your home, right? It lasts 100 years. You leave it open and its in the elements 12 months a year. And your lucky to get 5 years out of it before repairs are needed.

[papasmurfbell]

The stadium authority is still in existence right? They did it once I'm positive they will do it again, people will still buy lottery tickets

Yeah. They did the Hippodrome, Towson's Stadium and arena. They did something in OC several yrs ago. They are the owners of the stadiums and run them.

 

I might be naive but the newer stadiums are so much better nowadays, I can see their life spans being far greater than the ones built 50 years ago. Sure there will need to be improvements and changes, but I would think most of the new one would last a long long time. Maybe not, who knows what the new ones will have in 10 years that suddenly all the owners will want.

Except the Georgia Dome and StL are looking to get new diggs already.

[cravnravn]

I might be naive but the newer stadiums are so much better nowadays, I can see their life spans being far greater than the ones built 50 years ago. Sure there will need to be improvements and changes, but I would think most of the new one would last a long long time. Maybe not, who knows what the new ones will have in 10 years that suddenly all the owners will want.

The problem is today's building materials are shit because the manufacturers take short cuts and weaken their building materials. THEY ALL underbid just to get the job. They get it then start short cutting on the material. I've seen some of the tricks manufactures use.

[oldno82]

I miss the Baltimore Colts. I'd be lying if I said I didn't. The Ravens have been a good substitute though. The NFL of the 50s-70s was a much different beast than it is today. The older teams showed so much sportsmanship. Every time a guy does a dance in the endzone or flexes his biceps after a tackle, it makes me sick. Artie and Gino said the same thing. The old teams had tons of class.

 

But, that is a long gone era now. Everything in is 'in your face' today.

 

M&T is a decent stadium. A dome would have made more money for the city. But I can live with M&T and Camden Yards.

 

Bottom line: we all better hope Bisciotti still owns the Ravens when the stadium lease is up.

 

Or we might get our hearts broken again.

[Spen]

 

Except the Georgia Dome and StL are looking to get new diggs already.

Yeah, I know. I meant on average.I can see good facilities lasting longer. I might be wrong.

I don't think either of those are thought of as particularly good stadiums.

[Oldschool739]

Spen I 100% agree with you, I was a season ticket holder from 1969 til they left and to go to a game with 47,000 no shows, well the writing was on the wall

You'd be wrong to agree that it was the city's and fans fault that they left.....1st of all, it was because they were run by a greedy drunken idiot that was out of control to the point, his own son said he would get drunk and tell him and others to go meet with people in another town and when they would call him back, he didn't remember sending them.....2nd the league, dictated by the other owners had to approve the move, and you can see why a team like the Skins would want them out of the area, but for whatever reason the majority voted for the move, just as they voted against us for the expansion team....You tell me how the city and fans could change that without giving their heart and soul and anything else the drunken idiot asked for ?

I do agree the stadiums are far better now, but even if they would have built one back then, it would be long outdated now as this one will be in yrs to come....The good thing is, Biscuit allocates a certain amount to upgrades every yr to keep up so he will get the max out of this one, which I love....

[Spen]

The league approved it because they knew it didnt matter whether they did or not as proven by a costly lawsuit the league had just lost to Al Davis.

 

They could have given him a stadium and the team would have stayed. Attendance could have been better the last five years. Irsay wanted a better football stadium in a more accessible area and the city didn't give it to him. Fans were not supportive of having a new stadium built. They could probably have tried to renegotiate a better lease for the Colts. Even in football season the Orioles controlled concessions and parking. What owner would be happy with that? Then the state senate introduced a bill that gave the state the power to take the team from him under eminent domain. He left before the bill was passed, like most owners considering moving would do. Yeah he was an idiot ass but he was playing in an antiquated stadium under a bad lease with a city unwilling to give him a new stadium and with a apathetic fanbase that wasn't in favor of a new stadium. With the stuff like the eminent domain bill its no wonder they left when they did in such a hurried way.

 

Sadly bad owners are part of sports but when fans and cities stop supporting the team they often only hurt themselves.

[thundercleetz]

When comparing old stadiums versus new ones, I think location plays a huge part. Newer stadiums are located in prime downtown locations, whereas older ones were in the suburbs or outskirts of downtown. Taking into account astronomically greater real estate and construction costs, there is much greater incentive to renovate a current stadium in a prime location then build a new one. Look at college stadiums as a reference: colleges will keep fixing and renovating a current stadium on campus simply because there is no more room on campus and the college cannot afford to build a new one. Many college stadiums are well over fifty years old and support over 70K six times a year.

 

I also think newer stadiums will last longer than older ones because older ones did not have a foot print for suites. Many old NFL stadiums were bowls, they simply couldn't be renovated. M&T has a good footprint with plenty of suites.

 

Additionally the dome phase was a disaster. They aged horribly, started to collapse, and lots of them were terrible for a city sky line. I am so glad we do not have a dome. Might have made the city more money but they are ugly. I went to school in New Orleans and the Superdome is hideous. And that's after they poured hundreds of millions in renovations. There is a reason why most of the domes built in the 70s/80s are already replaced. The retractable roof has been a great innovation.

[RavenousBG]

Spen, I see it different. Modell was no angel and yes he had some deals fall thru and took some losses but he wasn't an out and out bad guy. Find something good to say about Irsay the elder. I'll wait...... Modell tried. You're right that Memorial was outdated but again, the city wasn't building large structures for others at the time. Irsay was a greedy drunken bum! Modell wasn't the same. It was the way Irsay did it. It was a bucket of water over the head followed by a hard slap in the face. My opinion tho. Someone from Cleveland might disagree

[cravnravn]

You'd be wrong to agree that it was the city's and fans fault that they left.....1st of all, it was because they were run by a greedy drunken idiot that was out of control to the point, his own son said he would get drunk and tell him and others to go meet with people in another town and when they would call him back, he didn't remember sending them.....2nd the league, dictated by the other owners had to approve the move, and you can see why a team like the Skins would want them out of the area, but for whatever reason the majority voted for the move, just as they voted against us for the expansion team....You tell me how the city and fans could change that without giving their heart and soul and anything else the drunken idiot asked for ?

I do agree the stadiums are far better now, but even if they would have built one back then, it would be long outdated now as this one will be in yrs to come....The good thing is, Biscuit allocates a certain amount to upgrades every yr to keep up so he will get the max out of this one, which I love....

Well I agree and don't.agree with you. First off Indy had the drunk fucker and they sold out, Cleveland has been the laughing stock of the nfl since the sixties, even when they had "the drive" and "the fumble" it was laughed at by the rest of the nfl community, but guess what their fans still showed. Even when Modell announced he was moving in 95 they still packed the stadium.

 

We had a super bowl winning team that our owner gave two fucks about. He sold JohnnyU in 73 which is like eating meat on good Friday, had his run in with Joe Thomas, tried on numerous occasions to move the Colts, Tampa, Houston among others. We had a nfl team and he had no connection to Baltimore why every other owner approved the steal is still a mystery..

 

FUCK Rosenbloom also

[Oldschool739]

Spen, I see it different. Modell was no angel and yes he had some deals fall thru and took some losses but he wasn't an out and out bad guy. Find something good to say about Irsay the elder. I'll wait...... Modell tried. You're right that Memorial was outdated but again, the city wasn't building large structures for others at the time. Irsay was a greedy drunken bum! Modell wasn't the same. It was the way Irsay did it. It was a bucket of water over the head followed by a hard slap in the face. My opinion tho. Someone from Cleveland might disagree

You got it right BG......And for those that think it was so simple as to build a new stadium and that the fans were against it for sentimental reasons, think about this....At the time, the city was trying to figure out all the particulars of where they would get the money to build one, location of property and purchase, but Otis the drunk wanted it on demand and was too irrational to sit down and go through a normal process...He was always too drunk to reason with....Have you ever tried to change a drunks opinion ??? Then you understand....

The city knew that attendance was down because Otis couldn't put a viable team on the field that they could stand behind, and wanted to address that problem first, before they hit the business industry up for the money for a new stadium....Why build a state of the art building for a drunk that was out of control and that the fans did not like or respect....His doings 100% for that.....

Guys like Biscuit didn't get where they are by making stupid biz investments, that's why they are successful....And were it not for Jimmy, Bob would have tanked in Indy too.....

[Spen]

Spen, I see it different. Modell was no angel and yes he had some deals fall thru and took some losses but he wasn't an out and out bad guy. Find something good to say about Irsay the elder. I'll wait...... Modell tried. You're right that Memorial was outdated but again, the city wasn't building large structures for others at the time. Irsay was a greedy drunken bum! Modell wasn't the same. It was the way Irsay did it. It was a bucket of water over the head followed by a hard slap in the face. My opinion tho. Someone from Cleveland might disagree

I like Art and overall think he was a good man. Irsay was an ass and I don't like him. Just because I think the moves were similar I don't want it to sound like I like Irsay. Yuck!

 

I think if everything was happening now it would go down differently. The city dragged it's feet because they thought the stadium was fine and until very late in the process thought the team would never move. Now we know if an owner isn't happy and the lease is up - then they better make him happy.

[RavenousBG]

I like Art and overall think he was a good man. Irsay was an ass and I don't like him. Just because I think the moves were similar I don't want it to sound like I like Irsay. Yuck!

 

I think if everything was happening now it would go down differently. The city dragged it's feet because they thought the stadium was fine and until very late in the process thought the team would never move. Now we know if an owner isn't happy and the lease is up - then they better make him happy.

true that

[papasmurfbell]

The league approved it because they knew it didnt matter whether they did or not as proven by a costly lawsuit the league had just lost to Al Davis.

 

They could have given him a stadium and the team would have stayed. Attendance could have been better the last five years. Irsay wanted a better football stadium in a more accessible area and the city didn't give it to him. Fans were not supportive of having a new stadium built. They could probably have tried to renegotiate a better lease for the Colts. Even in football season the Orioles controlled concessions and parking. What owner would be happy with that? Then the state senate introduced a bill that gave the state the power to take the team from him under eminent domain. He left before the bill was passed, like most owners considering moving would do. Yeah he was an idiot ass but he was playing in an antiquated stadium under a bad lease with a city unwilling to give him a new stadium and with a apathetic fanbase that wasn't in favor of a new stadium. With the stuff like the eminent domain bill its no wonder they left when they did in such a hurried way.

 

Sadly bad owners are part of sports but when fans and cities stop supporting the team they often only hurt themselves.

The city could not afford it. It took Willy Don getting to the Gov's seat to push for new stadiums.

[papasmurfbell]

[cravnravn]

Love It

[thundercleetz]

So I'm reading articles on how Donald Trump wants to buy the Bills. One of them mentioned how Trump tried to buy the Baltimore Colts in 1983. I searched and found this:

 

http://articles.philly.com/1986-05-22/sports/26050476_1_harvard-business-school-seminar-usfl-attorney-harvey-myerson-donald-trump

 

Did any of more tenured fans know about this?

[oldno82]

Didn't hear a word about that at the time. We just would have been exchanging one looney for another.

[Spen]

I never heard that either.