How wise is Bisciotti?

[SpearSrai]

That's like saying the Belichek has nothing to do with the offense in New England. Are the likes of Belichek and Parcells known for defense? Of course they are, however they both have in-depth knowledge of football and certainly put their stamp on offenses as well. Billick definitely had something to do with the defense, there's no way he just put is head in the sand and said, just run it. Billick certainly had an idea of what kind of defense he wanted and hired the coordinators to produce it!

 

1) Billick never hired Marvin Lewis or drafted the players that made the Ravens defense great. That was all in place when he came aboard.

 

2) Belichick and Parcells, two hall of fame coaches, run entirely different types of organizations. Belichick doesn't even always have an offensive coordinator, like was the case this year. But during the seasons when the Patriots were the most successful, he did.

 

There's no question that Marvin Lewis did install the Raven's defense, entirely, and he certainly got credit for it. It also didn't hurt that he had a young Ray Lewis entering his prime.

[geo]

1) Billick never hired Marvin Lewis or drafted the players that made the Ravens defense great. That was all in place when he came aboard.

 

2) Belichick and Parcells, two hall of fame coaches, run entirely different types of organizations. Belichick doesn't even always have an offensive coordinator, like was the case this year. But during the seasons when the Patriots were the most successful, he did.

 

There's no question that Marvin Lewis did install the Raven's defense, entirely, and he certainly got credit for it. It also didn't hurt that he had a young Ray Lewis entering his prime.

 

Uhm where was that defense in 2002?

 

When Ray and McCrary went down, there were only C-Mac who was also injuried and Boulware, so basically nine new starters. I think you could easily make the argument, that Nolan made some impact, half of our starters is still from Nolan era, and 7-8 players is doing some impact else where like Scott and Douglas.

 

Who was the man behind our defense from 2002-2009? Obviously Nolan made some impact, Rex took a lot of credit and the more I think back his value is overrated, the defense was already there in 2005, in four seasons, he only started two rookies, same did Mattison in 2009.

 

Any way you migth think Billick had little to do with our D. First thing it was our defense who was the weak link when Billick arrived, still he maintained Marvin.. was that so obvious in the early 1999? Its a fact Billick had a flair to pick up Defensive coaches. Jack Del Rio, Mikex4 Nolan, Smith; Pettine and Singleterry and Rex, probably forgetting some.

[cravnravn]

1) Billick never hired Marvin Lewis or drafted the players that made the Ravens defense great. That was all in place when he came aboard.

 

Rod Woodson, Adams, C-Mac, were on the Billick watch..If you're giving Marvin credit for our success, how about give him the full blame when we had the worst D in the NFL in 1996-1998..His flat out failures cost Teddy M his job.

 

 

[vmax]

Nothing like a Billick thread to stir up controversy.

I smell a chance (once again) for all of us to re-write Ravens football history 'as we see it'. Sweet!

 

To stay on topic for a moment...how lucky are we to have Steve as an owner! Leadership, Direction and Spirit start at the top and Steve has the vision and abilities as an owner to field a competative football team year in and year out. He has a tremendous desire and passion to be on top. His organizational and management skills have created one of the most solid front office structures in the NFL. Players want to play here. High quality coaches want to coach here.

It's a must because ultimately how well that goes shows up on the field on Sundays.

[SpearSrai]

You're giving Billick credit for things that Ozzie Newsome did. Who was the VP of player personnel?

[geo]

You're giving Billick credit for things that Ozzie Newsome did. Who was the VP of player personnel?

 

Not sure who you are responding to? But I will give you so much.. Max please this is giving Steve credit, for things that Ozzie did!

 

Seems to me most of the fundament was already there when Steve became owner, thanks to Art and Ozzie, (well and Brian too, now I did it again, sorry!)

[ForceEight]

You're giving Billick credit for things that Ozzie Newsome did. Who was the VP of player personnel?

Prove that Ozzie Newsome did them and not Brian Billick.

[SpearSrai]

Prove that Ozzie Newsome did them and not Brian Billick.

 

You're being silly.

[Spen]

You're giving Billick credit for things that Ozzie Newsome did. Who was the VP of player personnel?

 

Are you saying who the coach is has no effect on free agent signings? Or that a coach has no input at all in drafting?

[SpearSrai]

Are you saying who the coach is has no effect on free agent signings? Or that a coach has no input at all in drafting?

 

limited, especially with the scouting dept we had then. Billick certainly influenced a pick or two during his tenure, but I believe that it is generally based on a consensus.

[vmax]

There was no 'Ravens football' as we know it until 1999 when Billick got here. That year Billick inherited one of the worst offensive rosters I've ever seen.

 

Ozzie got all the players except Stover and a couple left over Brownies. So he is responsinble for setting up the senario where Billick was forced to go to the 'Darkside'...meaning play great defense (because that was the personel strength he had), pound the football (because he had a big line that could run block but not pass protect...didn't matter...he had no QB anyway) and run the football.

In 2000 that all came together...Ravens Football...tough, smashmouth, physical, grind it out football...smothering defense and swagger ect.

 

It was more of a fortunate result of Ozzie (by '99 and 2000) getting it extremely right on the defensive side of the ball and failing on the offensive.

 

Players set the tone...gave it the capital R in Ravens football...McCrary, Ray Lewis, Boulware, Adams, Goose, Burnett, Woodson and McAlister. They gave it the intensity. On Offense it was Gash, Ogden, Lewis, Mulitalo and Dilfer...with Sharpes mouth to provide the swagger.

 

So lots of people had a part in this...including Art who didn't fire Marvin Lewis like he wanted too in '97...Ozzie told him not too, that Marvin just needed better players and Ozzie certainly got them.

[SpearSrai]

There was no 'Ravens football' as we know it until 1999 when Billick got here. That year Billick inherited one of the worst offensive rosters I've ever seen.

 

Ozzie got all the players except Stover and a couple left over Brownies. So he is responsinble for setting up the senario where Billick was forced to go to the 'Darkside'...meaning play great defense (because that was the personel strength he had), pound the football (because he had a big line that could run block but not pass protect...didn't matter...he had no QB anyway) and run the football.

In 2000 that all came together...Ravens Football...tough, smashmouth, physical, grind it out football...smothering defense and swagger ect.

 

It was more of a fortunate result of Ozzie (by '99 and 2000) getting it extremely right on the defensive side of the ball and failing on the offensive.

 

Players set the tone...gave it the capital R in Ravens football...McCrary, Ray Lewis, Boulware, Adams, Goose, Burnett, Woodson and McAlister. They gave it the intensity. On Offense it was Gash, Ogden, Lewis, Mulitalo and Dilfer...with Sharpes mouth to provide the swagger.

 

So lots of people had a part in this...including Art who didn't fire Marvin Lewis like he wanted too in '97...Ozzie told him not too, that Marvin just needed better players and Ozzie certainly got them.

 

And what, in your opinion, was Billick's major contribution to said defense?

[ForceEight]

You're being silly.

Then please explain to me how the defensive ranking changed from 22nd in 1998 to 2nd in 1999.

 

Should you use your argument of Newsome or Lewis making the changes, please explain why you think those changes were made in 1999, and not 1996, 1997, or 1998. Furthermore, please explain why you don't think that Billick influenced the defensive changes, or any evidence you have that Billick wasn't a very good defensive mind.

 

I'm not being cute, I just genuinely don't understand any argument that considers that Billick inherited the excellent Ravens' defense, rather than built it largely himself.

[Spen]

limited, especially with the scouting dept we had then. Billick certainly influenced a pick or two during his tenure, but I believe that it is generally based on a consensus.

 

We can disagree, but I think a head coach has a lot more influence on free agent signings than a 'limited' amount. I am sure most have some input in which ones we pursue, and the head coach can be a major draw or detriment to a potential free agent.

 

Billick changed the entire make up and mind set of the team, ask any player who was around before he was hired and they all say the same thing. Remember at one point Ogden was rumored to want out because he didnt like the way things were run.

[vmax]

Force...in '98 the front 7 was almost ready to be dominant..McCrary, Jones, Goose, Burnett, Lewis, Boulware and Sharper. Sharper was a slacker but Ray put the 'Fear of God' into him that year...Ray would not tolerate that and Sharper grew up quick...now follow this...Marvin ran the basic 4/3 Cover 2, it had been around for a long time (not Marvins invention or Tampa's) but it only works if you have good corners and guys who can cover. The Ravens had a 'step slow' Woodson on one corner and Deron Jenkins on the other with Moore and a young Herring at safety. The D did not work...hence the 22nd ranking.

In '99 Ozzie drafted McAlister and they moved Woodson to safety and Starks started at corner. That changed everything. Now the D was very effective.

 

Spear...you can't call it Billicks offense and Marvins D. Either it's Billicks offense and defense or Cavanaughs offense and Marvins D. Marvin was no genius. 2/3rds of the DC's in the league would have gotten the same results with the talent Marvin had...the other 1/3rd would have screwed it up. Look at Marvins assistants..all brought in by Billick (he canned everybody basically except Marvin)...so Billicks hand is all over that D... Jack Del Rio, now a HC...Mike Smith, now a HC...Rex Ryan, now a HC...Donnie Henderson.

Whatever.. Billick was the HC and that role is different from a co-ordinators. He was responble for the whole team package and how it is used...how it works in tandum to achieve victory. He wrote the 'Darkside' script out of necessity during the 5 game TD drought in 2000. He had to find a way to win with what he had and he did.

That's when 'Ravens football' was born.

I forgot to mention Stover. He and Special Teams were a major weapon in Billicks limited scoring arsenal.

Throw in Billicks 'swager', arrogance and attitude and the tone was set.

 

Final note: Ozzie made a major and significant move in '99 in getting the Falcons #1 draft pick for 2000. It turned out to be the #5 pick. The Ravens needed a DT to replace Jones and before the draft, and with McCrary's help, he landed Sam Adams. The final piece on D. That allowed him to use the #5 pick on Jamal Lewis...the powerfull, smashmouth runner the Ravens needed to carry the O on his back. Certainly Shannon Sharpe was a significant aquisition in many ways.

Edited January 24, 2010 by vmax

[SpearSrai]

We can disagree, but I think a head coach has a lot more influence on free agent signings than a 'limited' amount. I am sure most have some input in which ones we pursue, and the head coach can be a major draw or detriment to a potential free agent.

 

Billick changed the entire make up and mind set of the team, ask any player who was around before he was hired and they all say the same thing. Remember at one point Ogden was rumored to want out because he didnt like the way things were run.

 

So things were run poorly before, and Billick didn't run things nearly as poorly. That doesn't necessarily prove that Billick did anything special... I contend that any new coach could've had the same effect, as you see year after year in the NFL. Call it a placebo effect.

 

Just like you have to compare quarterbacks based on how an average NFL quarterback would do in that situation, how much better did Billick do than another average NFL coach (your Andy Reid's, your John Fox's, your Mike Tomlin's, etc.) would've done in that same situation?

 

(I got those names off of the middle section of this list that ranked head coaches in week 17 http://espn.go.com/nfl/sportsnation/ratings)

 

Maybe Billick was instrumental in bringing Rod Woodson, Shannon Sharpe, etc. into Baltimore. Maybe he wasn't. All I'm saying is that he didn't do anything extraordinary in regards to our defense, whereas Marvin Lewis and Ray Lewis did.

 

And as far as what changed between '98 and '99, you had guys like Boulware and Lewis hitting their prime, in addition to the aforementioned "new coach" placebo effect.

 

And just for the sake of argument, the Bengals went from a combined 6-26 in 2001-2002 to 16-16 in 2003 and 2004 under Marvin Lewis. Then they blew up to 11-5 in 2005. I'm not saying Marvin Lewis is the second coming; all I'm saying is teams often perform better under new coaches, as long as they're buyin' what the coach is sellin'. And if nothing else, Billick is a hall of fame koolaid salesman.

[vmax]

Force...in '98 the front 7 was almost ready to be dominant..McCrary, Jones, Goose, Burnett, Lewis, Boulware and Sharper. Sharper was a slacker but Ray put the 'Fear of God' into him that year...Ray would not tolerate that and Sharper grew up quick...now follow this...Marvin ran the basic 4/3 Cover 2, it had been around for a long time (not Marvins invention or Tampa's) but it only works if you have good corners and guys who can cover. The Ravens had a 'step slow' Woodson on one corner and Deron Jenkins on the other with Moore and a young Herring at safety. The D did not work...hence the 22nd ranking.

In '99 Ozzie drafted McAlister and they moved Woodson to safety and Starks started at corner. That changed everything. Now the D was very effective.

 

Spear...you can't call it Billicks offense and Marvins D. Either it's Billicks offense and defense or Cavanaughs offense and Marvins D. Marvin was no genius. 2/3rds of the DC's in the league would have gotten the same results with the talent Marvin had...the other 1/3rd would have screwed it up. Look at Marvins assistants..all brought in by Billick (he canned everybody basically except Marvin... Jack Del Rio, now a HC...Mike Smith, now a HC...Rex Ryan, now a HC...Donnie Henderson. So Billicks hand is all over that D

Whatever.. Billick was the HC and that role is different from a co-ordinators. He was responble for the whole team package and how it is used...how it works in tandum to achieve victory. He wrote the 'Darkside' script out of necessity during the 5 game TD drought in 2000. He had to find a way to win with what he had and he did.

That's when 'Ravens football' was born.

I forgot to mention Stover. He and Special Teams were a major weapon in Billicks limited scoring arsenal.

Throw in Billicks 'swager', arrogance and attitude and the tone was set.

 

Final note: Ozzie made a major and significant move in '99 in getting the Falcons #1 draft pick for 2000. It turned out to be the #5 pick. The Ravens needed a DT to replace Jones and before the draft, and with McCrary's help, he landed Sam Adams. The final piece on D. That allowed him to use the #5 pick on Jamal Lewis...the powerfull, smashmouth runner the Ravens needed to carry the O on his back. Certainly Shannon Sharpe was a significant aquisition in many ways.

Edited January 24, 2010 by vmax

[SpearSrai]

Spear...you can't call it Billicks offense and Marvins D. Either it's Billicks offense and defense or Cavanaughs offense and Marvins D.

 

Why not? Isn't it possible for a coach to influence one unit of the team more significantly than the other?

[vmax]

Why not? Isn't it possible for a coach to influence one unit of the team more significantly than the other?

 

 

Certainly...ironic that Marvens Bangals defenses's have been pathetic his whole tenure there until this year.

 

My point is...Billick had a huge influence on that D with the brilliant coaches he brought in in '99.

Ozzie built it with the players. Without the players we are not talking about Marvin Lewis. He was one cog in "Ravens Football' but not the main one by a long shot.

[SpearSrai]

Certainly...ironic that Marvens Bangals defenses's have been pathetic his whole tenure there until this year.

 

My point is...Billick had a huge influence on that D with the brilliant coaches he brought in in '99.

Ozzie built it with the players. Without the players we are not talking about Marvin Lewis. He was one cog in "Ravens Football' but not the main one by a long shot.

 

*shrug* I guess, if you're saying that Billick was influential because he hired better coaches than himself to assist with his team, then I can see the argument there (provided, of course, that these were guys Billick brought together himself). Plenty of guys have gotten jobs because of the coordinators they bring with them (Lane Kiffin, anyone?)

[Spen]

Seriously is the debate here whether Billick had a large positive effect on the Ravens or was he made to look good by other factors? If it is, and I am not a huge Billick fan, than its too silly of a topic for me to continue.

 

Like him or hate him I think there is ample evidence that Billick did ( as in not just watched)very good here, and little evidence to suggest otherwise.

[dc.]

*shrug* I guess, if you're saying that Billick was influential because he hired better coaches than himself to assist with his team, then I can see the argument there (provided, of course, that these were guys Billick brought together himself). Plenty of guys have gotten jobs because of the coordinators they bring with them (Lane Kiffin, anyone?)

 

And plenty of coordinators have gotten jobs simply because of the coaches they have worked under...

 

Some people are meant to be coordinators. Romeo Crennel. Charlie Wies. Lane Kiffin. Probably even Cam Cameron.

 

Some people are meant to be head coaches.

 

Head coaches have influence all over their teams - work ethic, mentality, mindset. Billick brought a lot to this team - especially in terms of organization and bringing it into a newer 'era' of football, business, decision-making, etc.

 

He was FAR from perfect. But he deserves plenty of credit for everything this team did while he was here. Just like he deserves credit for everything that went wrong.

 

 

 

As for the original discussion on Bisciotti... I think his decision making is fine. We changed horses at the right point. I think ditching Billick any earlier could have been disastrous. 13-3 in 2006 has Billick's handprints all over it. But his inability to 'sustain' his team year-to-year became evident.

 

Remember when there was whining when Harbaugh was fired that Bisciotti may have made the hire 'solely on personality,' the way a businessman might? Where's that talk now. Head coaches need personality. A lot of it. And sometimes, a very different personality from what was around before - which included Rex.

[vmax]

Seriously is the debate here whether Billick had a large positive effect on the Ravens or was he made to look good by other factors? If it is, and I am not a huge Billick fan, than its too silly of a topic for me to continue.

 

Like him or hate him I think there is ample evidence that Billick did ( as in not just watched)very good here, and little evidence to suggest otherwise.

 

My interest was in trying to find out when "Ravens Football was born and how it came about. Harbaugh constantly talks about "We're Ravens and being a Raven" and I thought "Well, what is Ravens football? How did it come about?"

In writing about it, it seems there are a lot of factors and people that made it happen. Ozzie brought in an incredible assembly of defensive players but did not do so good on offense by '99. In fact that unit was terribly weak in personel. Then in 2000 on O he got Jamal and Sharpe. Ozzie was the "Architect" but not all went as planned because the offensive personel could not score. That was a weakness and team flaw.

Billick's vision of Ravens football was different. He wanted a high scoring, explosive offense and a good defense...but he didn't have the personel on hand to do that. That's why I say "He wrote the 'Darkside' script out of necessity during the 5 game TD drought in 2000. He had to find a way to win with what he had and to his credit, he did."

 

Ravens football was born during the 5 game TD drought. The D played magnificently and kept the games close.

Billick developed a winning 'game script' that employed all three phases of the game working in tandum toward the same goal.

1. On defense it was stop the run and force the QB to beat you with his arm. The D mastered that. They became an attacking, scoring defense that raised havoc.

2. Use the defense, running game and great Special team unit to control field position. The punt became a weapon as teams could not drive the length of the field and score on that unit. Stover became a weapon as did Jermaine Lewis.

3. Avoid the costly turnover.

4. On offense it was a smashmouth running game. Win time of possesion. Move the chains, get in FG range, and if it stalls, score 3.

5. The passing game was asked to make 2-3 big plays a game...that's how they got their points.

 

I do not want to overlook the players. Without them Ravens football would never exist. Ozzie gets the credit here for assembling them...him, Harris and the scouting department. The type of player Ozzie and now Jim Harbaugh wants as "Ravens" are guys like Ray Lewis. He set the bar. Fast, physical, whistle to whistle, intelligent leaders. Relentless...heart and character guys...unselfish players too. Or as Jim calls them, "Mighty Men"...

Guys like McCrary, Boulware, Goose, Adams, Burnett, Woodson, McAlister (at that time)...Ogden, Gash, Dilfer (tough as nails), Jamal, Sharpe, Mitchel and Mulitalo....they created the identity by performance and example.

 

Since then the torch has been passed from team to team.

 

A look ahead on Ravens football...

Harbaugh and Ozzie want to build on 'Ravens football' by adding an effective offense. One that can run or pass, move the chains and most importantly score. They want a physical offense so Ozzie has started by building in the trenches with what I think will be a great O line for years to come. He's got the QB and the runners. Now for the final pieces..play making receivers.

 

Passing the tourch on D will be touch and go. Ozzie has been drafting offense in the early rounds lately. He hasn't brought in a Ray Lewis, Ed Reed, Boulware, McAlister. The team is tottering on the brink of reverting to the '99 unit (Jenkins and Langham) because of coverage problems in the secondary. It can go south. The hope is for Foxworth to get better and Webb to fill the bill but he may not be ready to start the season.

Can Matteson continue the legacy as Ray ages and Ed contemplates retirement? Marvin couldn't do it without players and neither will Greg be able too. Nevertheless Greg and Ozzie have a soild core to build upon and work with in Kelly Gregg, Jarrett Johnson, Pryce, Ray, Ngata, Reed and Suggs.

Edited January 24, 2010 by vmax

[varaven45]

My interest was in trying to find out when "Ravens Football was born and how it came about. Harbaugh constantly talks about "We're Ravens and being a Raven" and I thought "Well, what is Ravens football? How did it come about?"

In writing about it, it seems there are a lot of factors and people that made it happen. Ozzie brought in an incredible assembly of defensive players but did not do so good on offense by '99. In fact that unit was terribly weak in personel. Then in 2000 on O he got Jamal and Sharpe. Ozzie was the "Architect" but not all went as planned because the offensive personel could not score. That was a weakness and team flaw.

Billick's vision of Ravens football was different. He wanted a high scoring, explosive offense and a good defense...but he didn't have the personel on hand to do that. That's why I say "He wrote the 'Darkside' script out of necessity during the 5 game TD drought in 2000. He had to find a way to win with what he had and to his credit, he did."

 

Ravens football was born during the 5 game TD drought. The D played magnificently and kept the games close.

Billick developed a winning 'game script' that employed all three phases of the game working in tandum toward the same goal.

1. On defense it was stop the run and force the QB to beat you with his arm. The D mastered that. They became an attacking, scoring defense that raised havoc.

2. Use the defense, running game and great Special team unit to control field position. The punt became a weapon as teams could not drive the length of the field and score on that unit. Stover became a weapon as did Jermaine Lewis.

3. Avoid the costly turnover.

4. On offense it was a smashmouth running game. Win time of possesion. Move the chains, get in FG range, and if it stalls, score 3.

5. The passing game was asked to make 2-3 big plays a game...that's how they got their points.

 

I do not want to overlook the players. Without them Ravens football would never exist. Ozzie gets the credit here for assembling them...him, Harris and the scouting department. The type of player Ozzie and now Jim Harbaugh wants as "Ravens" are guys like Ray Lewis. He set the bar. Fast, physical, whistle to whistle, intelligent leaders. Relentless...heart and character guys...unselfish players too. Or as Jim calls them, "Mighty Men"...

Guys like McCrary, Boulware, Goose, Adams, Burnett, Woodson, McAlister (at that time)...Ogden, Gash, Dilfer (tough as nails), Jamal, Sharpe, Mitchel and Mulitalo....they created the identity by performance and example.

 

Since then the torch has been passed from team to team.

 

A look ahead on Ravens football...

Harbaugh and Ozzie want to build on 'Ravens football' by adding an effective offense. One that can run or pass, move the chains and most importantly score. They want a physical offense so Ozzie has started by building in the trenches with what I think will be a great O line for years to come. He's got the QB and the runners. Now for the final pieces..play making receivers.

 

Passing the tourch on D will be touch and go. Ozzie has been drafting offense in the early rounds lately. He hasn't brought in a Ray Lewis, Ed Reed, Boulware, McAlister. The team is tottering on the brink of reverting to the '99 unit (Jenkins and Langham) because of coverage problems in the secondary. It can go south. The hope is for Foxworth to get better and Webb to fill the bill but he may not be ready to start the season.

Can Matteson continue the legacy as Ray ages and Ed contemplates retirement? Marvin couldn't do it without players and neither will Greg be able too. Nevertheless Greg and Ozzie have a soild core to build upon and work with in Kelly Gregg, Jarrett Johnson, Pryce, Ray, Ngata, Reed and Suggs.

 

Max,

 

Very well done sir ! You touched on it all.

 

As the team moves ahead, I wonder whether, by selecting Harbs over Rex, we may have passed the baton for "the best D for years to come" on to Rex.

 

I am not saying that is such a bad thing (although I admit it felt damn great to have that 2000 D which was the best I ever saw), because the balanced approach that I beleive we are seeking may be in our best long term interest. Time will tell, huh ? If we do indeed go that route we had better damn be sure we get Flacco some big time weapons and now. I am concerned that Joe is on the cusp of going either way - either an elite guy or just your average Joe. I cant wait for the offseason.

 

In the meantime, thanks for the great piece and all you do on this board.

 

Go Ravens !!!

[thundercleetz]

Damn, who awakened the sleeping giant? I haven't seen max pull out a post like that in awhile. LOL