I like Obamas suggestion on violence

[vmax]

 

In his impassioned address in the wake of Thursday's horrible shooting at an Oregon community college, Obama issued a challenge to the media. "Have news organizations tally up the number of Americans who've been killed through terrorist attacks in the last decade and the number of Americans who've been killed by gun violence, and post those side-by-side on your news reports," he asked. Over ten thousand Americans are killed every year by gun violence. By contrast, so few Americans have been killed by terrorist attacks since 9/11 that, when you chart the two together, the terrorism death count approximates zero for every year except 2001. This comparison, if anything, understates the gap: far more Americans die every year from (easily preventable) gun suicides than gun homicides.

The point Obama is making is clear: we spend huge amounts of money every year fighting terrorism, yet are unwilling, at the national level, to take even minor steps (like requiring background checks on all gun sales nationally) to stop gun violence.

"We spent over a trillion dollars, and passed countless laws, and devote entire agencies to preventing terrorist attacks on our soil, and rightfully so" Obama said. "And yet we have a Congress that explicitly blocks us from even collecting data on how we could potentially reduce gun deaths. How can that be?" http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/deaths-from-gun-violence-vs-deaths-from-terrorism-in-one-chart/ar-AAf1eOa?li=AAa0dzB

 

I know getting rid of guns won't stop the killing. People will just go back to clubbing each other to death.

But....using the same amount of money to stop the mass murders in this country....even just to put a serious dent in that makes great sense.

Have educational classes in the schools on healthy ways to resolve conflict and deal with emotions of anger, hate and rage. Create course on how to live by spiritual principles.

Educate Hollywood and the TV media industry and the video gaming industryt that they are part of the problem with the huge glut of movies and shows where everybody has a gun and that solves the problem.

Educate our population that we are the problem, because we view, demand and watch these kinds of shows.

How many TV and movie murders has a child seen by age 13? Are they numb to it? Are they beginning to think this is how to behave?

Identify and help the mentally ill.

Make it not cool to own a gun.

Create neighborhood and family programs to identify and get help for individuals with a propensity towards violence.

Make it real damn hard to own a gun.

Create education, jobs programs and opportunities for every child growing up in financial poverty and poverty in spirit. These kids in Baltimore are pissed off because they see no way out of the ghetto. They have no hope. Thier dreams of being self supporting and having their own home and family have been stamped down in the dirt.

 

Mobilize. Make mental, emotional and spiritual war on this.

 

One month ago, my son and 2 friends were walking into a gas station to get a soda. 4 older youths blocked the door and told them to empty their pockets. My son said "No way." 4 others came up from behind. This is right at the gas station door. They get attacked, start getting the better of the attackers....one pulls a knife and begins trying to kill them. All of this is caught on the gas station cameras. The 22 year old man with the knife keeps slashing for my sons throat. Then he swings down for a heart shot. My son can't move fast enough out of the way so he puts his arm up, the knife goes into his arm cutting 5 tendons and severing 3 of them. But not the heart. The attackers flee.

Today I sit at this keyboard grateful that he is alive and will fully recover....but I know I could easily be typing this with him dead and gone and my heart broken....and if you knew him, he's an upbeat, positive, happy-go-lucky Tom Sawyer type of guy. Good. Clean.

This can be your child.

The attacker could be your child.

 

I race to Shock Trauma from work and see my son and the doctors. He tells me what happened and then blew me away with this statement. He said, "Dad. I looked into his eyes. Something is wrong with that kid. He's not right. Maybe someday I could get a job helping kids like that. I think I could get through."

No anger. No rage. No revenge or retaliation factor. No Hate.

 

If only the rest of us could be like that.

 

Somehow we have to find a way to raise the consciousness of this society. Raise the vibration.

The old ways do not work and never have.

 

 

 

 

[dc.]

Getting rid of (some/many) guns will stop much of the violence. There are 350m privately owned guns in this nation of 315m people... Highest rate in the world. Which correlates strongly to having the highest murder rate in the advanced world.

 

The number of guns does matter. Criminals don't find as many guns to steal, buy and sell when there are simply fewer in the first place.

[dc.]

But I do agree there are cultural issues here too. But one of those issues is an American preoccupation with proving right through might...

 

You know who has the worst answer to all this stuff yesterday? Trump. For all he's an apparent expert on, here pretty much said, gee shucks, things happen and we can't stop it.

[OutsideRzAcE]

Wow Max that must have been terrifying. I'm glad your son is ok.

 

Obama gets more and more pissed with every shooting rampage. I think it's hopeless though. If the country was not moved by a classroom full of elementary school kids getting murdered in school then nothing will do it.

[cravnravn]

Wow Max sorry to hear about your son.

 

Trying to take guns off the streets will never happen.

[Spen]

Thats scary Max, I am glad he was not hurt as bad as he could have been.

 

Wow Max that must have been terrifying. I'm glad your son is ok.

 

Obama gets more and more pissed with every shooting rampage. I think it's hopeless though. If the country was not moved by a classroom full of elementary school kids getting murdered in school then nothing will do it.

 

I think its hopeless too. Every time something happens both sides spout the same old arguments. Today there was a shooting in Sydney Australia and I saw a bunch of posts from pro gun people (for lack of a better term) gleeful about it because they thought it proved their point that gun laws don't work. I am glad Obama mentioned how we are supposed to be shocked when these things happen but how any more we are not or at least shouldn't be. Then of course he gets mocked for getting angry and wanting change.

 

Were screwed and we deserve whatever we get. In regards to violence, environmental issues, distribution of wealth, and numerous other issues.

[ForceEight]

Getting rid of (some/many) guns will stop much of the violence. There are 350m privately owned guns in this nation of 315m people... Highest rate in the world. Which correlates strongly to having the highest murder rate in the advanced world.

I fail to see the correlation.

 

Switzerland has the fourth-highest number of firearms per capita (US being first), and their total does not include the fact that many civilians own government-issued firearms that aren't calculated.

 

Switzerland also has 6% of the number of firearm-related homicides per capita that the US does.

 

That is a culture problem. Not a quantity of firearms problem.

 

I am entirely and in every way for more organized gun laws that include background checks and verifications. However, a civilian that passes all of those checks should have the right to own as many firearms as they please, frankly.

[dc.]

I fail to see the correlation.

 

Switzerland has the fourth-highest number of firearms per capita (US being first), and their total does not include the fact that many civilians own government-issued firearms that aren't calculated.

 

Switzerland also has 6% of the number of firearm-related homicides per capita that the US does.

 

That is a culture problem. Not a quantity of firearms problem.

 

I am entirely and in every way for more organized gun laws that include background checks and verifications. However, a civilian that passes all of those checks should have the right to own as many firearms as they please, frankly.

 

If you're just talking number of guns... Switzerland is the exception not the rule, though. And I have never seen that their number does not include gov't issued because the once you leave the military, you are allowed to keep your rifle in most casses... so every time I've seen the Swiss numbers, I am given the implication it at least includes "formerly" government issue.

 

But, I am not talking confiscation - I am talking, limitation using basic registration regulations. Swiss regulations are much tighter than the US. If the gun is government issue - based on mandatory military service for all men - then the ammunition must be stored at centralized locations. Privately owned arms and ammunitions can be kept at home, but most choose to keep ammo in central locations. Private arms require a license to buy and full registration. Even private sales (person-to-person) require registration and notification of the state so that they know where the guns are going and can keep track of them. Licenses to purchase are generally only allowed for one gun at a time.

 

So yeah, I think you should be able to own. I think regulations on how to own would limit the numbers out there. I think if you break those regulations, your right to own in the future should be limited or reconsidered.

[tsylvester]

This entire premise is incorrectly applied. See, when they do gun stats to shootngs & killings, they include those done with illegally obtained guns and by gang violence.

 

You cannot include those stats when using stats on gun deaths such as these mass shootings.

 

Do some states need stronger gun laws? Mandatory back ground checks? Yes, but this shooter had been through the process, so how exactly does the President or any think this could have been stopped?

 

How do you legislate mental illness into gun laws? What constitues mental illness? An over night stay at a mental facility? No how easy it is to get some one involuntarily comitted for a 24 hour watch?

 

Would that disqualify them from owning a gun?

 

Do you want to pass laws limiting the number of guns a person can own?

 

 

Look, bad people who want to do bad things will find a way; just look at the recent stabbings that went on around the world. Sure, less body count...

 

Know how easy it is to build an explosive device? With parts easily obtained from the super market, hard ware store, even craft stores.

 

It is very easy to get an illegal gun, so bad guys such as this guy, who, at this point, was perfectly sane, would still have found guns.

 

It is a slippery slope, yes, more registration is needed where none exists, but no, you do not have a right to know I have a gun nor how many I own. Sorry....

[Spen]

Yeah, nothing can be done.

 

Freedom.

[dc.]

Good gun laws will make it harder for bad guys to find guns in the black market by limiting the supply on the black market.

 

Tight restrictions on more dangerous weapons work - how many of these crimes are committed with fully automatic weapons? Virtually none because you can't buy them legally and therefore can't find them via back channels. Same goes for exclusive building parts, etc. Why aren't people making bombs if it's so easy? Because it's not actually that easy.

 

The same would and could be true for firearms. Mandatory reports of stolen weaponry. Mandatory registration of all sales, including private. And penalties that make letting a gun "disappear" into a black market costly. You can strangle the black market. (Guns aren't drugs, harder to hide...)

 

Meanwhile, I have yet to hear if the Oregon shooter was properly licensed, etc, and bought legally. Maybe he was. And yes, some bad will still happen. But that doesn't mean we can't lessen it and perfect it...

 

PS ... I think it's easier than you think to have someone involutely committed for a short period.

[dc.]

It is a slippery slope, yes, more registration is needed where none exists, but no, you do not have a right to know I have a gun nor how many I own. Sorry....

Why not, by the way? Technically if we can register purchases, aren't we tracking how many you own?

 

But more than that, given that the amendment expressly says the purpose of ownership is the security of the state and militias... We certainly can expect that the govt (state govt at least) wants to know where guns are such that they are ready to serve that purpose.

[cravnravn]

Simple question, why did this shooter need 13 guns. all obtained legally, shouldn't there be limitations on the amount of guns one buys?

[Spen]

PS ... I think it's easier than you think to have someone involutely committed for a short period.

 

I think that is what he meant, that since its relatively easy to get someone committed for a short period then perhaps that should not be used in determining whether someone should be allowed to own a gun or not.

[vmax]

I've lived my whole life and never owned a gun. I never saw the need for one. I've never been in a situation where a gun would have helped.

I don't even think about wanting a gun.

I'm glad I never had one in my home because I'd be worried all the time if my kids or their friends found a way to get hold of it.

Other than things like skeet or target shooting, putting a gun in my hand means I can only do one thing with it...Kill.

I don't wake up or live my day wanting to kill.

Shit...it would really fuck with my head if I had to carry one around and store it on my body. Now I have to look for trouble. But TV the movies and videos games make it look so easy and natural.

 

So I choose to live out my days without a gun. I'm glad that one of the things that I won't have to live with is killing another human being who tried to rob me of $50 or steal my car. Take it Coward. I'll get another.

 

I knew there would be a lot of gun control talk and as many as we can get out of people's homes, off the streets the better....But again....this will put a dent in the senseless killing, but people will find other weapons to use. They have throughout history. It started with a rock to the head or a stick....to the atom bomb.

We are good at killing.

As a society we are not mature enough to posses this many guns. The murder stats prove it.

 

So....the solution is spiritual in nature but what are the odds for everybody waking up and raising their consciousness? Turning from a life of fear to one of love and respect for their fellow man?

I'm not too optimistic on that happening in the next thousand years. Our life priorities as a society are so fucked up. And we have no true leaders of vision in government. Or maybe we have a small handful who are not owed.

But that doesn't mean that I can't be me. I don't have to be one of the herd.

 

I love the young people who say "Stop the Hating." They get it.

[dc.]

 

I think that is what he meant, that since its relatively easy to get someone committed for a short period then perhaps that should not be used in determining whether someone should be allowed to own a gun or not.

Yeah, upon a reread I agree. And maybe it should at least be considered... Maybe you should at least have to explain and discuss the circumstances.

 

In many states, having a restraining order against you is not ground to reject a gun purchase. Not surprisingly, in those stars, domestic violence fatalities are significantly higher...

[cravnravn]

Max I hear your preach, but herion and coke are illegal and it can be had anywhere, anytime.

[dc.]

I've lived my whole life and never owned a gun. I never saw the need for one. I've never been in a situation where a gun would have helped.

I don't even think about wanting a gun.

I'm glad I never had one in my home because I'd be worried all the time if my kids or their friends found a way to get hold of it.

Other than things like skeet or target shooting, putting a gun in my hand means I can only do one thing with it...Kill.

I don't wake up or live my day wanting to kill.

Shit...it would really fuck with my head if I had to carry one around and store it on my body. Now I have to look for trouble. But TV the movies and videos games make it look so easy and natural.

 

So I choose to live out my days without a gun. I'm glad that one of the things that I won't have to live with is killing another human being who tried to rob me of $50 or steal my car. Take it Coward. I'll get another.

 

I knew there would be a lot of gun control talk and as many as we can get out of people's homes, off the streets the better....But again....this will put a dent in the senseless killing, but people will find other weapons to use. They have throughout history. It started with a rock to the head or a stick....to the atom bomb.

We are good at killing.

As a society we are not mature enough to posses this many guns. The murder stats prove it.

 

So....the solution is spiritual in nature but what are the odds for everybody waking up and raising their consciousness? Turning from a life of fear to one of love and respect for their fellow man?

I'm not too optimistic on that happening in the next thousand years. Our life priorities as a society are so fucked up. And we have no true leaders of vision in government. Or maybe we have a small handful who are not owed.

But that doesn't mean that I can't be me. I don't have to be one of the herd.

 

I love the young people who say "Stop the Hating." They get it.

Max, so much truth in here and your sins story - horrific story- is evidence of that. But at the very least, we could reduce fatalities by tremendous numbers with simple gun measures. The evidence is there not only in other nations but in our own.

 

I look at my children and hear your story and think I could never live it. But then I think about what you said, what if it had ended worse? Not sure I could manage ever again, and worse, to know how little has actually been attempted

[tsylvester]

Good gun laws will make it harder for bad guys to find guns in the black market by limiting the supply on the black market.

 

Tight restrictions on more dangerous weapons work - how many of these crimes are committed with fully automatic weapons? Virtually none because you can't buy them legally and therefore can't find them via back channels. Same goes for exclusive building parts, etc. Why aren't people making bombs if it's so easy? Because it's not actually that easy.

 

The same would and could be true for firearms. Mandatory reports of stolen weaponry. Mandatory registration of all sales, including private. And penalties that make letting a gun "disappear" into a black market costly. You can strangle the black market. (Guns aren't drugs, harder to hide...)

 

Meanwhile, I have yet to hear if the Oregon shooter was properly licensed, etc, and bought legally. Maybe he was. And yes, some bad will still happen. But that doesn't mean we can't lessen it and perfect it...

 

PS ... I think it's easier than you think to have someone involutely committed for a short period.

 

 

It isn't that simple. There is a psycology that plays a huge roll in how some one kills. Guns are more personal than a bomb, knife is more personal than guns, bare hands are the most personal way to kill some one.

 

 

But if a person is too weak to use their hand they reach for a weapon,. If there is no knife, they get a gun. If they cannnot get a gun, they will use a bomb.

 

Look no further than Oklahoma bombing, sure they used guns as well, but the premise holds- it is easy to make them without the feds knowing. Look at Columbine, again, the bombs did not work, but they tried to use them, they built them with out anyone knowing.

 

Why should thee be a limit on how many guns some one owns? Some people collect sports memorbilia, some colect knives, some toys, some guns. At shooting ranges they are fun to shoot, no different thn going to the golf range or batting cage.

 

Not everyone who collects guns wants to hurt people. In fact, as I said ealier, if you factor out the killins & shootings done by gangs with illegal guns, gun vilonce is at its lowest rate than ever before, dispite more people owning more guns than ever before in this country.

 

I do agree with back ground checks, it is simple & easy. What I don't agree with is limiting the number of guns for a person nor making those registrations public.

[dc.]

Actually, I think we agree on a lot more here than it appears. The only place I disagree is about bombs, but that's besides the real point.

 

I don't really want limits on the number of weapons you can own. I do think that reasonable measures will naturally reduce some ownership though, which I don't think is a bad thing.

 

I also didn't mean that a public registry would be literally public, as in I don't want to search it, etc. I meant public as in maintained by the govt. It's not my personal business, but it is our society's business.

 

I did realize on point of disagreement - o don't believe the claim that gun violence is down if you remove gang related violence. I actually think all violence is down from 30-40 years ago, including gun violence. But it's still too much and its not all just gangs and these mass shootings are on the rise and not gang attributable.

[vmax]

Thanks everybody.

Oh...and I'm not trying to come off like I'm some sort of high enlightened spiritual being. We all know better than that...

But I do keep trying to wake up and be better....to see how far I can grow and go in this lifetime.

 

I do like Obama's points.

Why don't we do it?

[tsylvester]

Actually, I think we agree on a lot more here than it appears. The only place I disagree is about bombs, but that's besides the real point.

 

I don't really want limits on the number of weapons you can own. I do think that reasonable measures will naturally reduce some ownership though, which I don't think is a bad thing.

 

I also didn't mean that a public registry would be literally public, as in I don't want to search it, etc. I meant public as in maintained by the govt. It's not my personal business, but it is our society's business.

 

I did realize on point of disagreement - o don't believe the claim that gun violence is down if you remove gang related violence. I actually think all violence is down from 30-40 years ago, including gun violence. But it's still too much and its not all just gangs and these mass shootings are on the rise and not gang attributable.

 

 

 

Yes, I can see we agree on a lot. My mistake thinking you wanted public records, sorry about that.... I recently saw a news story where police we called to a man's home and they found over 100 guns of different types; he was arrested. The news story did not cover why they were called nor why he was arrested; I am sure it was for other reasons other than owning a lot of guns.

 

I just envision a time when tht will be the only reason.

 

But one point I cannot give in on is how they accumulate the stats for gun violence. You can look it up if you want, but what I said true; they include gang related shootings & deaths in their numbers.

 

Those numbers are greatly increased if we include the numbers. Just look at Baltimore and Chicago over a 10 day period for shootings & killings. They can combine for close to 20 deaths and more than 50 shootings. Multiply that out for a year and you can see how those gang related numbers will greatly affect legally owned gun shootings & killings.

 

I do agree, these mass shootings are clearly on the rise. When I was young, you never heard of this, never. Now, could be the media did not report on it as they do today, or that it never happened, don't know.

 

But while they use guns to do this, most of them were illegally obtained, this shooter appears to have them legally, which would not be the norm.

 

So I am not sure how stronger gun laws will make much of a difference.

 

When a prson feels wronged enough, they will strike out any way they can. This is a psychological fact that can not be argued against. Go to your local library (or else if you use a search engine the feds will come visit you ) and look up books on making simple but effective boomers. Boston was a good lesson on this and some one desperate enough to go shooting up schools, malls, churches, etc, will turn to that and using books, who will know?

[dc.]

I am certain gang/drug related crime is a large part of our violence problem. I'm just not sure it is hiding a decrease in other violent crimes.

 

My biggest hope is that stronger gun laws will choke the flow of guns into the black market, which start as legally owned. It won't solve every crime. But 10,000s per year is simply too many. People may still stab, smite and otherwise attack, but the death rates are possibly much lower. Even in Boston, horrific as it was, the death toll was lower than in Oregon this week.

[dc.]

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/10/04/opinion/sunday/nicholas-kristof-a-new-way-to-tackle-gun-deaths.html?mwrsm=Facebook&referer=http://m.facebook.com/

 

Usually don't care for Kristoff, but he is pretty close on this one and explains it well