My Good Friend Mike

[vmax]

"I find it hard to argue with this..."

 

""I have come to the conclusion that Joe Flacco will never be a great NFL quarterback, but a good one. Unfortunately, Flacco is playing in a city that has been so starved for a quality quarterback that his every move is scrutinized.

But there was only one Unitas as there is only one Manning, Brady and Dan Marino. Fans want to make Flacco into something he isn't, and that's a great quarterback. Instead, he is a good quarterback, one who can take the Ravens where they want to go if used properly."

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/blog/2010/12/there_is_only_one_unitas.html

 

My only worry is the fans and media running him out of town. We bitch so much...myself included.

[papasmurfbell]

I can agree with that. Joes can win a SB but they need to work to his strengths and get quality around him.

[yagersports]

Joe has shown improvement throwing over the middle as well. That was a major weakenss of his, and I've seen several really nice touch balls that Joe has thrown this year. Of course, the quantity of those throws over the middle need to increase without a correspondingly large increase in INTs. Inevitably there will be a small increase, but proportionately they need to increase only slightly.

 

I know that I have been such a downer the past few weeks on this board, so I will throw in the occasional upbeat perspective. It did take Eli and Drew into their fourth year until they really became quality QBs.

[papasmurfbell]

I agree. People have expectations that are to high. They expect a player to be a pro bowler right out of the draft.

[Spen]

I agree. People have expectations that are to high. They expect a player to be a pro bowler right out of the draft.

 

Maybe some do. My trepidation about Flacco is that is see very little improvement from Flacco since his rookie season primarily in seeing the field and reading defenses. If its true about him not being allowed to audible I assume Cam and the coaches worry about those aspects too.

 

As far as how good he will be, its tough to say at this point. He could be very good or might be a Dilfer.

[Spen]

I wouldn't worry about fans running Joe out of town or being too critical. Overwhelmingly from what I read and hear is most people blaming anyone but Joe for the teams troubles.

[Guest BallTMore]

I wouldn't worry about fans running Joe out of town or being too critical. Overwhelmingly from what I read and hear is most people blaming anyone but Joe for the teams troubles.

 

 

Not in my experience. Other boards have battles every week about Joe.

 

Every home game I've been too I've heard harsh criticism of Joe. Usually after the first incomplete pass, or a sack. I've heard Bulgers name more times than I can count.

 

Maybe on message boards he doesn't seem to get blamed, but at the stadium he gets way more than his fair share.

[ForceEight]

Speaking of Bulger, I just wanna be the first to say that I'm infinitely curious as to what he'd do on this offense.

[vmax]

Flacco's and Bulger's career numbers are similar...passer rating (84-87)...ypp (7.2)...completion percentage (62)

 

The difference is that now Joe is on the rise and Bulger on the decline.

[ForceEight]

Bulger's numbers include the years he was surrounded by a bunch of college players. Have to remember that.

[vmax]

Bulger's numbers include the years he was surrounded by a bunch of college players. Have to remember that.

 

And he also had a Hall of Fame cast.

 

Joe didn't have much until this season...think about it. He had Mason...they kept Heap in to block while the line developed.

 

Their numbers are close.

[ravinmaniac52]

What people have to stop looking at is numbers. Look at his play on the field.

 

As someone said here, he left a lot of points on the field, and that is done each week.

 

I do not think Joe is a bad QB, and I do think he can be a great QB, with time. Joe had to start his rookie year and was very lucky to have a very good running game his first 2 years. It is only his 3rd season and he has all the parts this season but he isn't seeing it.

[Spen]

Not in my experience. Other boards have battles every week about Joe.

 

Every home game I've been too I've heard harsh criticism of Joe. Usually after the first incomplete pass, or a sack. I've heard Bulgers name more times than I can count.

 

Maybe on message boards he doesn't seem to get blamed, but at the stadium he gets way more than his fair share.

 

Traitor!

[yagersports]

You mean there are other boards? I was told this was the only place to talk Ravens football! haha

[thundercleetz]

First, don't compare Flacco to Dilfer. There is simply no comparison. Second, while Flacco has left a lot of points on the field, how about the receivers? Mason dropped a TD pass in the Pats game, Boldin dropped one as well on a PI penalty, and he's had a couple of other passes dropped in the endzone as well. Flacco has had multiple third down passes dropped that killed drives, and plays where he has been running for his life on poor pass protection. Don't forget the beautiful redzone drive last week where Cam called two fade passes back-to-back. Flacco deserves some blame, but definitely not all of it.

 

Also, look at Flacco's two minute drills this year and his numbers when blitzed (I believe he has the highest QB rating when blitzed). Flacco clearly works better when he's in an uptempo, no-huddle offense. Matt Ryan gets to work a no-huddle offense, why doesn't Flacco? Preston is right, Flacco will never be a Brady, Manning, or Unitas, but neither will 99% of the QBs in this league. What we need to do is build an offensive system around Joe's strengths, something we are currently not doing well. The fact that he has still been able to have this much success says a lot about his talent.

 

Last year we simply did not attack the middle of the field. This is something Flacco has done very well this season. His touch has been much improved, as has his deep ball putting the ball where only the receiver can catch it. This is evident by the amount of PI penalties we have gotten downfield. Flacco is not making boneheaded decisions he has made last season. Rarely do you see him make a throw and you think "what was he thinking?" He still has trouble reading the field, but he is very good at getting the ball out quickly when in an uptempo offense.

 

Here is the most important point: Since the Bengals game teams have tried to attack Flacco with a Cover-2 defense. It hasn't worked, he has done very well against these defenses. Bottom line, Flacco is an asset to this team. He makes us better. Dilfer, Boller, etc. hindered this team. Flacco isn't a Manning or a Brady, but he certainly makes us better and is a good QB who can one day be great.

[BeenAround]

"Maybe on message boards he doesn't seem to get blamed, but at the stadium he gets way more than his fair share."

 

Flacco gets heat from the fans at the stadium because they can see what we often cannot on TV...open receivers. Like Harbaugh has said when play calling is questioned, "the receivers are open". Don't let the numbers fool you, were it not for yards after catch (particularly with Rice)...Flacco's stats wouldn't look nearly as good. Right now everyone on the team is protecting "Slow" Joe but frustration is mounting and it's gonna blow one of these days.

[yagersports]

"Maybe on message boards he doesn't seem to get blamed, but at the stadium he gets way more than his fair share."

 

Flacco gets heat from the fans at the stadium because they can see what we often cannot on TV...open receivers. Like Harbaugh has said when play calling is questioned, "the receivers are open". Don't let the numbers fool you, were it not for yards after catch (particularly with Rice)...Flacco's stats wouldn't look nearly as good. Right now everyone on the team is protecting "Slow" Joe but frustration is mounting and it's gonna blow one of these days.

 

It's a poor arguement to say that yards after catch have nothing to do with the QB. Being a QB is about finding guys that are open and can get just that. You could make that arguement with just about every QB in the league. If you took all of Wes Welker's YAC away, Brady would have a fraction of 1st downs that he throws for. Same thing with Brees! The only guy I can think of that does it without the YAC is Manning. And well, he's in another Universe as we all know.

 

I believe that Joe is showing improvement, it's just not at the pace any of us were expecting. (Perhaps those expectations were unrealistic) He is still better than alot of the QBs in this league.

[Spen]

First, don't compare Flacco to Dilfer. There is simply no comparison.

 

Merely used as an example of he could become great or another Dilfer. Its really too soon to tell. He is better than Dilfer is now, but if he doesnt improve in the next couple of years, and I dont think he has much since being a rookie, he will be nothing more than an average QB IMO.

Its really too soon to tell.

[Spen]

"Maybe on message boards he doesn't seem to get blamed, but at the stadium he gets way more than his fair share."

 

Flacco gets heat from the fans at the stadium because they can see what we often cannot on TV...open receivers. Like Harbaugh has said when play calling is questioned, "the receivers are open". Don't let the numbers fool you, were it not for yards after catch (particularly with Rice)...Flacco's stats wouldn't look nearly as good. Right now everyone on the team is protecting "Slow" Joe but frustration is mounting and it's gonna blow one of these days.

 

 

It's a poor arguement to say that yards after catch have nothing to do with the QB. Being a QB is about finding guys that are open and can get just that. You could make that arguement with just about every QB in the league. If you took all of Wes Welker's YAC away, Brady would have a fraction of 1st downs that he throws for. Same thing with Brees! The only guy I can think of that does it without the YAC is Manning. And well, he's in another Universe as we all know.

 

I believe that Joe is showing improvement, it's just not at the pace any of us were expecting. (Perhaps those expectations were unrealistic) He is still better than alot of the QBs in this league.

 

Every QB benefits from YAC is true but when a QB overlooks (or doesnt even look for) open receivers and instead just dumps the ball to his RB who picks up big gains the numbers can be misleading. Ray Rice's great year receiving last year disguised the lack of improvement in Joe's games IMO. If Rice wasn't so successful receiving the ball and Joe had to look for open targets, I don't think it would have been pretty.

 

Honestly if Rice wasn't so good last year I wonder if Bulger would have been brought in to "mentor" Joe resulting in Joe watching for a while. If so that may have hurt the team long term (maybe not) but I have to be honest and say that for just this one season with these offensive weapons; I think the team could go farther with Bulger.

[BeenAround]

Every QB benefits from YAC is true but when a QB overlooks (or doesnt even look for) open receivers and instead just dumps the ball to his RB who picks up big gains the numbers can be misleading.

 

That's exactly my point and I don't know if Flacco will ever get beyond it for two reasons:

 

1. He has a slow release mechanically.

2. He has a slow release mentally.

 

Time will tell. But when you combine the above with an average OLine, the results are bound to be disappointing.

[Spen]

That's exactly my point and I don't know if Flacco will ever get beyond it for two reasons:

 

1. He has a slow release mechanically.

2. He has a slow release mentally.

 

Time will tell. But when you combine the above with an average OLine, the results are bound to be disappointing.

 

Sadly, I see things the same way and have the same worries.

[yagersports]

Ok, I do understand the criticism of Flacco , however aren't we overlooking some improvements? I think that perhaps some of us are just looking for a reason to say he's a failure. Saying that Flacco is slow mentally definitely flys in the face of hos #1 rating under pressure. Comon, let's be fair. I do think Flacco needs to find more receivers than check downs, fair enough. What about Flaccos major improvement on throwing over the middle and progress against the cover two. If he can improve on those wraknesses why should we doubt his ability to address decision making in the offseason. He def seems willing to put the work in. I think that we should realize that rome wasn't built in a day.

[Spen]

Ok, I do understand the criticism of Flacco , however aren't we overlooking some improvements? I think that perhaps some of us are just looking for a reason to say he's a failure. Saying that Flacco is slow mentally definitely flys in the face of hos #1 rating under pressure. Comon, let's be fair. I do think Flacco needs to find more receivers than check downs, fair enough. What about Flaccos major improvement on throwing over the middle and progress against the cover two. If he can improve on those wraknesses why should we doubt his ability to address decision making in the offseason. He def seems willing to put the work in. I think that we should realize that rome wasn't built in a day.

 

I don't want to say he is a failure, I hope he improves and is the Ravens QB a long time.

 

The problem I have is that I don't think he has improved very much at all since his rookie year. You say you see it, I really don't. Part of the problem is his slow reads (or non-existent at times) and still his rookie mechanical mistakes. If he started as a sucky rookie and worked his way up to being average at times I would be happy. However I feel he was decent as a rookie and no better than decent now. In comparison while Joe is better now that Boller is or ever was, I did see a lot more improvement from Boller his first few years than I have for Joe. Decision making wise, if as it has been reported Joe is not allowed to change the play or audible at all then there is a reason for that the coaches see and its not that they are worried he'll be too good at it.

 

I don't like what I see, and I wish I felt differently but I do think I am being fair.

[BeenAround]

Saw it again last night. Mason did a curl to the outside and slow Joe took so long to get rid of the ball the DB almost had time to recover after being faked out of his shoes by Mason. Also saw Boldin glaring at Flacco to the point where Harbaugh pulled Boldin up when he came to the sideline. And then there was the forced pass to Boldin on 3rd and 2. Finally, the whole coaching staff ought to be fired for thinking Oher could move to LT and f'ing with Gaither's head the way they did. Yea coach, we are who we are...because of decisions you've made.

[yagersports]

All in all, I really thought Flacco played very well. If we bust off some runs, we aren't talking about Flacco at all. I'm not saying Flacco doesn't have work to do, but it seems pretty clear after last night that it's our run game and playcalling that is failing. Flacco seems to have made adjustments and Flacco made some very impressive passes last night. There was no slow release or decision on the TD pass. I can easily count 10-15 solid quick release passes Flacco made to his 2-3 that came up short.