Why examine Romney’s taxes?

[papasmurfbell]

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/opinion/54703943-82/romney-tax-marriott-bain.html.csp

 

 

Candidates for the presidency should be thoroughly vetted. That is why voters deserve full disclosure of how Mitt Romney’s wealth was accumulated and invested, his offshore investments and the nature of his financial relationship with Bain Capital since his retirement. This information goes to the core of Romney’s character and values.

The Republican presidential candidate and former governor released 20 years of tax returns when he was vetted for the vice presidency in 2008 before John McCain picked Sarah Palin. In his 2012 bid for the presidency, Romney has made public his 2010 tax return and expects to release his yet-to-be-completed 2011 return.

But Romney’s refusal to release his tax returns for the most important years of building his wealth at Bain Capital raises a legitimate concern: Did he build his wealth through aggressive tax strategy that is questionable at best?

Romney’s financial affairs lack transparency by design. President Obama fought for tax reforms eliminating special loopholes for the wealthiest, to pay down the deficit and protect the middle class, yet Romney is comfortable exploiting those loopholes, while on the stump he is promoting tax cuts.

• On his recent trip abroad, Romney skipped Italy, for good reasons. Bain Capital, with Romney as CEO, made about $1 billion in a leveraged (minimal cash outlay – low-risk) buyout of an Italian company. Bloomberg News reported that Bain funneled its profits through subsidiaries in Luxembourg, a common corporate way to avoid taxes in other European countries. The buyer, Italy’s biggest telephone company, now is valued way below what it paid Bain and other investors for the business. The shock waves of this transaction are still felt in Italy.

• In Romney’s self-directed individual retirement account, he used heavy leveraging and a "blocking company," thereby avoiding the "unrelated business income tax" normally imposed on such gains in IRAs. His IRA’s growth to $100 million is astounding in light of contribution limits of $30,000 annually. On its face, the IRA was likely funded in part with stock shares valued well below market.

• Presidential candidates generally avoid betting the U.S. dollar will lose value by speculating in Swiss francs. Yet such speculation was the stated purpose of Romney’s "blind" trust Swiss bank account, which was closed in early 2010. Was the income reported on earlier tax returns? Did Romney timely file disclosure forms to the Treasury Department?

• Romney’s large accounts held in "family trusts" raise the question whether gift taxes were paid and required disclosures were made.

• Romney’s apparent disdain for tax obligations is clear from his role in Marriott International’s abusive tax shelter activities. From 1993 to 1998, Romney was head of the audit committee of the Marriott board of directors, with responsibilities that included tax planning. The so-called "Son of Boss" tax shelter helped Marriott sell $81 million of mortgage notes, reporting a $71 million "tax loss." Romney was an insider with perspective on the motivation and lack of substance in the transaction, fully understanding the tax avoidance game. Romney reportedly was the board member most familiar with the transaction.

This shelter, used by Marriott and others, represented one of the largest tax-avoidance schemes in history, costing the U.S. billions in lost tax revenues. In 2008, the U.S. Federal Court of Claims ruled against Marriott, which appealed and lost again. The appeals court sided with the Department of Justice, calling Marriott’s transactions "fictitious," "artificial," "spectral," an "illusion" and a "scheme."

[thundercleetz]

Sounds like a smart guy to me. The problem is with the system, you cannot blame the people or companies who use these legal loop holes. It's human nature to take as much as you can get. It's like leaving a cookie on the floor when your dog is out then getting mad at your dog for eating it. You shouldn't have left the cookie out. If you want to control this behavior and do not want this to happen, then fix the system. Eliminate the IRS and make something a lot more simple. Of course, the politicians who receive a $100K+ pension per year after only two years of "service" would never do that. This applies to both parties too. I'm convinced that 95% of politicians are just a complete waste.

 

I'm not pro-Romney nor Pro-Obama just as an FYI, Ron Paul was my guy. I really do not care who wins this election for I do not think anything will get done with either of these candidates.

[papasmurfbell]

The problem is these guys basically bribe our politicians to get out of what is their share.

[thundercleetz]

The problem is these guys basically bribe our politicians to get out of what is their share.

 

Preaching to the choir here, believe me I agree. But when your Senators and Congressmen have unlimited life terms, they are going to do everything in the rules to gerrymander and give lobbiests what they want to keep their position. Once again, human nature. People will continue to push the limits as long as politicians put up with it.

[papasmurfbell]

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/middle-class-broke-pew-study-reveals-real-problem-155018682.html

 

They said what the repurcussions can be at the end.

[thundercleetz]

Pretty ambitious article IMO

 

To truly "fix" the U.S. economy, corporations are going to have to be persuaded to invest more of their excess profits in their employees, both by hiring new employees and paying existing employees more.[/Quote]

 

Good luck with that. You start telling coporations to pay their employees more and they'll start firing existing employees or outsourcing the jobs to India. Most companies do not have the means to pay their employees more. Sure, the ones you see in the media might, but that represents a very small portion of the employers in the US. In reality there are plenty of jobs available. They just fall within two categories: 1. an easily replaceable position that requires very little human capital. 2. A position that requires an individual who has invested a lot of human capital, were there are simply not many applicants.

 

The wage of job number 1 is going to be determined purely by market value. If someone demands a higher wage, that worker is fired because there is someone on the street who is equally capable of doing a low skill job (working in fast food, retail, etc.). The wage of job number 2 is going to be at a significant premium because there are simply not many people who can do that job (think engineers).

 

These "middle class" jobs are hard to find because they are often filled by people who have been with their company for a long time, and companies who have invested in their employees are more likely to promote within than look outside. Simply put, a lot of companies cannot afford to expand on these types of jobs. And these were the type of jobs that were the first to be cut in a bad economy. So it was expanding in the first place that put the economy in a bad position in the first place. Companies were paying good salaries but these were positions where you had two or three people doing the work one person could have done.

 

So the underlying problem comes from two sources. First, our education system is not properly educating students for the highly desired jobs. Less and less people are going into fields requiring math and science, or even technical skilled labor like machinery, an electrician, or carpentry. And these are areas where US public education trails other developed countries. Sure, you graduated from college but your degree was a liberal arts degree or a general degree in business. Companies are asking what specifically can you do that we already do not have? Nothing? Ok well you're suddenly in a call center or going door-to-door selling something.

 

The second source is pride. A lot of mid-career professions who were making a good salary are not willing to accept a lower salary or are putting too high of a request on an application. So companies will simply pay a young person a lot less money to do the same job (sure maybe not as well, but they are willing to put up with that for the lower salary). Like the economy, a lot of people over-expanded their means. Going back to the easily replaceable jobs, if people are having trouble finding jobs, why do immigrants continue to come to the US for work? They are taking work the average person will not do.

 

Bottom line, there are jobs available, applicants just aren't willing to take the easily available ones or are not qualified for the well paying ones.

 

If corporations can collectively be persuaded to reinvest more of their profits in their people, in other words, they will help restore their own revenue growth.[/Quote]

 

Isn't that what dividends are? Most companies offer stock dividend plans that have lower buy-ins and generous matches. Same with 401K's. That is kind of beyong the point howerver. I am just convinced the average American does not know how to properly plan their finances. Once again, this goes back to our education system. I do not think the solution to our economy is as easy as this article presents.

[papasmurfbell]

Like they said revolution could be in the making. The question is what will it look like. They better hope it doesn't look like the french rev. I am in favor of something like that.

[thundercleetz]

Like they said revolution could be in the making. The question is what will it look like. They better hope it doesn't look like the french rev. I am in favor of something like that.

 

Haha who knows. I am more along the lines of things were inflated in the past and this is how things are going to be for the intermediate future. So instead of hoping for change just learn to deal with it. I think any revolution or fall from capitalism (similar to the fall of the gold standard) is far off and will be beyond my time here on earth.

[papasmurfbell]

We don't really have capitalism now. The banks have proved that. I agree with Ron Smith that revolution happens when dramatic falls of expectation happen to fast.

[thundercleetz]

We don't really have capitalism now. The banks have proved that. I agree with Ron Smith that revolution happens when dramatic falls of expectation happen to fast.

 

Haha very true. I guess whatever form of makeshift, intervention capitalism we have now would have been more appropriate.

[papasmurfbell]

http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/1699988795001/clemens-trial-a-waste-of-money/

[papasmurfbell]

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/ag-eric-holder-has-no-balls-20120815

 

I can't find it but the justice dept used something like 90 investigators to go at Roger Clemens and only 50 going at the banks.

[thundercleetz]

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/ag-eric-holder-has-no-balls-20120815

 

I can't find it but the justice dept used something like 90 investigators to go at Roger Clemens and only 50 going at the banks.

 

I know what a disaster! I think the most humorous thing is when they were prosecuting Bonds the government attorney made a rookie mistake and got the case thrown out. What a huge waste of money haha

[Spen]

I am really frustrated of late. I go in phases but right now I feel we are living in a plutocracy and our votes mean little. I think both parties are similar and no matter who win partisan politics will ensure nothing will really change.

 

Romney may not have done anything illegal with his taxes but I bet he knows some people wont like some of the things he has done or else he would be more forthcoming with his returns. The blind trust stuff bugs me and the Italian Telecom deal he funneled through Luxemborg bugs me. Not that I am saying they are illegal but I think they are unsavory.

 

Its always bothered me that an anecdotal story about someone abusing the welfare system pisses some people off to no end yet when people dodge taxes and hide income the same people view that as part of a game. For sheer dollar amount alone the latter is a much bigger problem.

 

Isn't it great that in such a bad economic time someone who may be worth 300 million (its hard to tell) is able to deduct 77,000 from their taxes because they lost money on their Dressage horse.

 

Are we really supposed to believe that corporate deregulation and private enterprise are going to help us get out of this mess? Arent those some of the factors that got us into the problems we are in? Are these the same corporations who moved huge number of jobs overseas in the past 25 years? Are these the same corporations who open storefront 'headquarters' in Bermuda, Sweden, or Ireland to avoid paying corporate taxes? And we are going to talk corporate tax cuts? For the companies that have fucked us and the country?

 

I work hard, I pay the taxes I am supposed to (and thats not small in Maryland) and every year they seem to go up. So it pisses me off when someone who is super rich pays a lot less than I do whether counting in % or actual dollar amount. And if they are glib about that, that will stick with me and they will not get my vote.

 

I think the middle class has shrunk to dangerously small numbers and frankly I do not see it getting any better. I cannot see manufacturers moving jobs back when they can pay foreign workers a fraction of the income as American ones. I cannot see the government levying serious import tariffs on companies who move manufacturing jobs overseas and therefore have to import the goods. Campaign donations will stop that. So I think the bottom will fall out even more. I long have thought (and stated here) that I thought the US would fall apart (and break apart) sometime in the first quarter of the century. I still feel that way, its a system of haves and have nots with a upside down house of cards economy. I don't think it can last. What has changed is that the idea used to make me sad. Not so much anymore. If it happens, the country and its people have brought it on ourselves.

[thundercleetz]

I am really frustrated of late. I go in phases but right now I feel we are living in a plutocracy and our votes mean little. I think both parties are similar and no matter who win partisan politics will ensure nothing will really change.

 

I have felt this way for awhile. I voted in the last presidential election but I regret it (voted for McCain too). I did not really like McCain, but I liked him more than Obama. The only reason I went to the voting booth was to vote for Steven Hudson for Congress (District 8). Even though I knew he was going to lose, I thought he was an extremely intelligent person and had a solid moral compass. I should have just voted for him and left the rest of my ballot blank. From here on out I vowed I will only vote for candidates I fully support. I felt like that about Ron Paul, but since he is out I feel my vote would be a waste of time.

 

Are we really supposed to believe that corporate deregulation and private enterprise are going to help us get out of this mess? Arent those some of the factors that got us into the problems we are in? Are these the same corporations who moved huge number of jobs overseas in the past 25 years? Are these the same corporations who open storefront 'headquarters' in Bermuda, Sweden, or Ireland to avoid paying corporate taxes? And we are going to talk corporate tax cuts? For the companies that have fucked us and the country?

 

I think the middle class has shrunk to dangerously small numbers and frankly I do not see it getting any better. I cannot see manufacturers moving jobs back when they can pay foreign workers a fraction of the income as American ones. I cannot see the government levying serious import tariffs on companies who move manufacturing jobs overseas and therefore have to import the goods. Campaign donations will stop that. So I think the bottom will fall out even more. I long have thought (and stated here) that I thought the US would fall apart (and break apart) sometime in the first quarter of the century. I still feel that way, its a system of haves and have nots with a upside down house of cards economy. I don't think it can last. What has changed is that the idea used to make me sad. Not so much anymore. If it happens, the country and its people have brought it on ourselves.

 

What you are describing here is globalization at its finest and it is not going anywhere anytime soon. For something to change on the global level, the world economy is going to have to get a lot worse before it gets better. This problem goes well beyond this country. Capitalists in every country are doing this. If you want a prime example just look to Russia at the collapse of the Soviet Union. The country privitizes their industries to the highest bidders, the oligarchs snatch them all up, monopolize these industries, and then immediately transfer the profits to the Cayman Islands and Swiss Bank accounts. Boom... instant billionaires overnight and any hope of a middle class is gone.

 

So what we need to be doing as a country is identifying wasteful spending (how about finally auditing the fed?), fix the health care problem, encourage small businesses to boost local economies (improve the life of average Americans), and most importantly, fix the balance of trade with China and stop allowing them to take advantage of us by manipulating their own currency. Sure this is the same old jargon you hear all the time, but neither of these candidates has given us a plan with concrete details. It is all poltical speak like "strengthen the middle class", "change", etc. This is why I believe it does not matter who wins, nothing will get done.

 

Not to bring up Ron Paul again, but this guy actually had a plan. Whether or not you agree with it, at least he was able to explain in detail what he would do instead of dodging questions like dodgeballs. It is a shame the presidential election is basically a popularity contest, if Ron Paul was 25 years younger no doubt in my mind he would win.

 

I work hard, I pay the taxes I am supposed to (and thats not small in Maryland) and every year they seem to go up. So it pisses me off when someone who is super rich pays a lot less than I do whether counting in % or actual dollar amount. And if they are glib about that, that will stick with me and they will not get my vote.

 

See there have always been the super rich. Twenty years ago no one cared because the general quality of life for the average American was high. Someone like Bill Gates was considered an American hero is now demonized for being rich. Now that the economy is considered poor, the first thing people look to is the super rich as the problem. So going back to your original statement: I work hard and pay the taxes I am supposed to, but what gets me mad is to see huge inefficiencies government. Hospitals are charging $500 for a two mile ambulance ride because they have to cover the cost of those who use an ambulance as a taxi but don't pay. Many hospitals are barely able to operate across the country. The Post Office posting an annual loss in the billions. Government congressmen and senators getting a $100K pension for the rest of their life after only two years of "public service" to their country. You have hundreds of "government agencies" where you have four employees doing the work that any for-profit business would only need one person.

 

I could go on and on. But it seems like an audit of the fed would at least give us a gameplan on how to construct a budget. Because honestly right now, we are going in blind. Globalization is not going anywhere, instead of trying to fight a winless fight against the super rich, there are simple fixes within our own government that would solve a lot of problems.

[papasmurfbell]

Take NJ. Christy gave huge tax breaks to corporations like Campbell's Soup. Campbell's laysoff hundreds of employees but keeps the tax break. Hey they also fired over a hundred cops in Camden because the state took money away from them. Oh yeah the people of Camden aren't contributers to Christy.

 

David Koch is said to have given Romney $100 mil to have Ryan as the VP. Why would someone do that. If they implement the tax breaks Koch will save $700 mil. You get what you pay for. Oh we all get a tax increase.

[Spen]

Cleetz, I do not really disagree with anything you have posted. The only thing I disagree with and I do not know if you mean me, but either way I do not think I am demonizing the rich. I just tire of hearing how little some pay tax wise and I do not think that is right. I do not even care if we had flat tax if it closed all the loopholes that some people exploit but I think we know that's not going to happen. Some of the demonizing could be backlash from the new label some use for the wealthy, the 'job creators' one. Again, it might not have come off that way, but I am not against the rich in general just some who are condescending or glib about the financial difficulties of the working class.

 

Health care. Dont get me started on health care. For 25 years that has been an election year topic and for 25 years my premium costs have gone way up. In the early 2000s they were doubling every year for a few years. I do not ever thing that will improve, and nor do I ever think it will stop being a political topic.

[cravnravn]

I agree with Spen 200% why dont we ahave it set up as to if you earn your wage in America, you must keep your dollar in America..Why dont they regulate these banks in the Bahamas and the Caymans, You make a deposit in these places you pay the american tax on that money too. Theres too many loopholes in the continental US for them to get away, they dont have to hide their money..And thats exactly what they are doing, hiding it.

 

Delaware is a tax free state, remember most of your credit card payments go to Newark De..Theres a reason for that.

 

But for Romney to make x amt of millions and he only need to pay 15000 in taxes, well thats just robbery on his part. How would he feel if he gets elected and every American opened checking accts in the Cayman Islands?? Ya think Obama has a mess, let something like that happen..

[cravnravn]

Oh forgot, 10 years ago I was extremely pissed off at UPS, caus you know every big company has a parent company, and UPS's parent Co is called OPL (Overseas Partners Limited) its a 1 room dead bolted door on Nassua in the Bahamas, I seen the SOB its right where the straw market is on that main drag if anyones ever been. Pretty pathetic eh.

[thundercleetz]

Cleetz, I do not really disagree with anything you have posted. The only thing I disagree with and I do not know if you mean me, but either way I do not think I am demonizing the rich. I just tire of hearing how little some pay tax wise and I do not think that is right. I do not even care if we had flat tax if it closed all the loopholes that some people exploit but I think we know that's not going to happen. Some of the demonizing could be backlash from the new label some use for the wealthy, the 'job creators' one. Again, it might not have come off that way, but I am not against the rich in general just some who are condescending or glib about the financial difficulties of the working class.

 

No no, I wasn't referring to you at all. I was just speaking about general public opinion in the US. I am sorry if I came off as accusative.

[thundercleetz]

I agree with Spen 200% why dont we ahave it set up as to if you earn your wage in America, you must keep your dollar in America..Why dont they regulate these banks in the Bahamas and the Caymans, You make a deposit in these places you pay the american tax on that money too. Theres too many loopholes in the continental US for them to get away, they dont have to hide their money..And thats exactly what they are doing, hiding it.

 

Quite simply it's also the corporations that have these politicians by the balls. Politicians start cracking down on this and businesses will pack up business and take it elsewhere, or they will make cuts in other areas of business. Now you're talking about tens of thousands in lost jobs. This is more than a problem in simply America, it would take a global initiative to fix this. This problem is not going to be fixed anytime soon...

 

Delaware is a tax free state, remember most of your credit card payments go to Newark De..Theres a reason for that.

 

But for Romney to make x amt of millions and he only need to pay 15000 in taxes, well thats just robbery on his part. How would he feel if he gets elected and every American opened checking accts in the Cayman Islands?? Ya think Obama has a mess, let something like that happen..

 

I think it is a little more difficult than that, but I understand your hypothetical. So tell me crav, what do you think about people who have duel state residencies, with one being in a tax-free state like Florida, and claiming there entire income as being in Florida when it is clearly not true?

[papasmurfbell]

I agree with Spen 200% why dont we ahave it set up as to if you earn your wage in America, you must keep your dollar in America..Why dont they regulate these banks in the Bahamas and the Caymans, You make a deposit in these places you pay the american tax on that money too. Theres too many loopholes in the continental US for them to get away, they dont have to hide their money..And thats exactly what they are doing, hiding it.

 

Delaware is a tax free state, remember most of your credit card payments go to Newark De..Theres a reason for that.

 

But for Romney to make x amt of millions and he only need to pay 15000 in taxes, well thats just robbery on his part. How would he feel if he gets elected and every American opened checking accts in the Cayman Islands?? Ya think Obama has a mess, let something like that happen..

 

The main reason why teh credit card companies chose Del is the unlimited intrest that Del allows.

[vmax]

Americans are too fat and lazy to have a Revolution. If they can't do it on Twitter it won't happen.

Wait till they are homeless and the food riots start.

 

The way I see it...today people go into politics and goverment to get rich and famous....and to gain power. Secondary...and way down the list because of their huge Ego's...is civic pride, love of this nation and serving their fellow man. That doesn't pay...so it's Un-American.

[papasmurfbell]

 

 

Really. How about the current and former military who were just arrested. It is comming. There are more and more pissed off people. You have kids who went to college and got loans because they were told it would be fine you can easily pay this off when you graduate. Now they are homeless. Guys who left parts of themselves in Iraq and Afgahnistan and have been thrown away here. That is just some of this. When it comes it will be mind blowing how bad it will get for people who have sold out the masses.

[cravnravn]

 

Quite simply it's also the corporations that have these politicians by the balls. Politicians start cracking down on this and businesses will pack up business and take it elsewhere, or they will make cuts in other areas of business. Now you're talking about tens of thousands in lost jobs. This is more than a problem in simply America, it would take a global initiative to fix this. This problem is not going to be fixed anytime soon...

 

 

 

I think it is a little more difficult than that, but I understand your hypothetical. So tell me crav, what do you think about people who have duel state residencies, with one being in a tax-free state like Florida, and claiming there entire income as being in Florida when it is clearly not true?

 

 

Thats Tax free for income only, everything else is taxed.Tax man will have fun with me this year, income in Md, Pa and Florida..