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ExtremeRavens: The Sanctuary

Should they stay or should they go


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Ali, Charles 38 Fullback He will try to win a spot during camp I guess.

Bannan, Justin 94 Defensive Tackle I am fine if he stays around but they may choose to go younger.

Barnes, Antwan 50 Outside Linebacker He has been a bust I think he is gone.

Beck, John 12 Quarterback He may or maynot be here.

Birk, Matt 77 Center 6-4 He will start.

Burgess, Prescott 54 Outside Linebacker I think he is gone or just doing special teams.

Carr, Chris 25 Cornerback They would have to eat his contract so I expect him back.

Chester, Chris 65 Guard / Center I am not sure he will have a spot.

Clayton, Mark 89 Wide Receiver GONE.

Cousins, Oniel 64 Tackle I hope he steps up to be that backup guy if not gone.

Cundiff, Billy 7 Kicker We will see.

Edwards, Dwan 93 Defensive Tackle He could be around.

Ellerbe, Dannell 59 Linebacker He might be starting or at least contributing.

Flacco, Joe 5 Quarterback Duh starter.

Foxworth, Domonique Cornerback He is locked in so he will go nowhere.

Gaither, Jared 71 Tackle Could be starting but I think he will need to show he is the man to get that new deal.

Gerard, K.J. 40 Cornerback You better show you can be here because they will be looking for CB's this off season.

Gooden, Tavares 56 Inside Linebacker I hope they try to turn him into a SS.

Gregg, Kelly 97 Defensive Tackle He may have come to the end of the line.

Grubbs, Ben 66 Guard P lease lock him down already.

Hale, David 62 Guard / Tackle I think he is gone.

Heap, Todd 86 Tight End It is the end.

Johnson, Jarret 95 Linebacker I love him but if we can get a 2nd rounder for him take it.

Jones, Edgar 84 Tight End Gone

Katula, Matt 70 Long Snapper Still snapping.

Koch, Sam 4 Punter Resign him.

Kruger, Paul 99 Linebacker / Defensive End Transitioning to LB.

Landry, Dawan 26 Safety Get rid of him.

Lewis, Ray 52 Inside Linebacker Starting again but he is dropping off.

Mason, Derrick 85 Wide Receiver He will retire or head for a contender

McClain, Le'Ron 33 Fullback I hope he is a heavy RB.

McClain, Jameel 53 Linebacker Starting or major contribution.

McGahee, Willis 23 Running Back Gone

McKinney, Brandon 91 Defensive Tackle Looking to get younger and better.

Moll, Tony 79 Guard / Tackle Gone

Ngata, Haloti 92 Nose Tackle Lock him down already.

Oher, Michael 74 Tackle 6-4 Starting on the right or left depending on Gaither.

Parmele, Jalen 34 Running Back 3rd RB

Pryce, Trevor 90 Defensive Tackle Retire most likely.

Reed, Ed 20 Safety I would try to trade him but with his injury I don't see any takers. He also may retire.

Rice, Ray 27 Running Back Starting

Smith, L.J. 82 Tight End I hope they cut him.

Smith, Troy 10 Quarterback He is #2 unless someone is willing to give me a 4th rounder.

Suggs, Terrell 55 Outside Linebacker Starting

Talavou, Kelly 98 Nose Tackle May take Greggs spot

Tyree, David 17 Wide Receiver I don't know if he will have a spot.

Walker, Frank 41 Cornerback Cut the cord.

Washington, Kelley 15 Wide Receiver Bring him back. He needs to start

Webb, Lardarius 21 Cornerback Starting

Williams, Demetrius 87 Wide Receiver Gone

Williams, Cary 29 Cornerback I don't know a thing about him.

Yanda, Marshal 73 Guard / Tackle Starting RG.

Zbikowski, Tom 28 Safety I hope they let him play some SS.

 

Practice Squad

Drew, Davon 83 Tight End He better be in shape to make the squad or he should be gone.

Harper, Justin 14 Wide Receiver I will give him a shot to make the squad.

Mattison, Bryan 72 Guard/Tackle Get a new tackling dummy.

Paschal, Marcus 30 Cornerback I don't know

Reitz, Joe 76 Tackle I think he will be gone

Riley, Eron 13 Wide Receiver I hope he is the #3 WR.

Rodgers, Stefan 69 Tackle No idea

VanDeSteeg, William 68 Linebacker/Defensive End Get a new tackling dummy.

 

IR

Rolle, Samari 22 Cornerback Done

Ayanbadejo, Brendon 51 Linebacker He could contend for a starting spot but at least on Special teams.

Divens, Lamar 96 Defensive Tackle I don't know who he is.

Lawrence, Matt 32 Running Back He may also be the #3 RB

Nakamura, Haruki 43 Safety Let him play and see what he can do.

Phillips, Jason 58 Linebacker Don't know

Ryan, Greg Center Don't know

Saucedo, Lou Tackle Don't know

Smith, Marcus 81 Wide Receiver He better show up in camp

Sypniewski, Quinn 88 Tight End I hope he can comeback.

Terry, Adam 78 Tackle He is done.

Washington, Fabian 31 Cornerback He is a FA so I think he is going to be gone.

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Too early for me. The regular season is short and the off season long.

I don't get into Free Agency until after the Super Bowl and the draft until March....but save this thread and list...it's a good work sheet to start with.

I do see about a 30% turnover on this roster...

anyway....I'm focused on the Packer game.

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I think in July I evaluated the team as 9-7 this yr and with that not making the playoffs. So I have watched this whole yr with the expectation of no Ravens games in January. I have watched the players to see who is worth of returning.

 

There are a lot of these guys who are nobodies. Some dude in his 3rd yr that will never play. I cast a bunch of them off but they could return because they would be replaced with new guys who provide the same role.

 

Mostly this was looking at guys like Kelly Gregg (he is my favorite Raven ever) who does not look good. Also Pryce, Heap and all the guys who are old and coing to the end.

 

So if it is about 30% that I had gone it is more like 12-15% that I had any real opinion on.

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No. Not really. I am already going through the roster and looking at the draft.

 

Well, I am not sure how to respond to that being we are right in the thick of a playoff race, but since the list is here I'll comment on it. For the most part I agree with you, so good job on the list! I think we have seen the end of Heap, Pryce, Fabian, Gregg, McGahee, Clayton, and Landry. Like you, I would love to bring back Kelly Washington and Sam Koch (who needs to be locked up long-term).

 

I think Dwan Edwards has more than proven that he is capable of being a solid starter at Pryce's 3-4 DE spot. I would love to have him back. I think Pryce is going to retire or be cut, he just does not have much in the tank. We have to use him very cautiously because he wears down easily. He has admitted in the past that his motor is not what it used to be. Edwards is definitely in line for a long-term contract as long as it does not break the bank.

 

I like the idea of trying Gooden at a SS. Maybe not even fulltime, but we could put him in the box in run situations as we would a SS. gooden seems like he has problems keeping his weight up and he is not physical enough to take on guards and fullbacks as a 3-4 ILB. He would probably be a better fit as a 4-3 MIKE or WILL.

 

As for Gaither, I think he has more than proven that he is the guy at LT. I encourage you to read these two scouting reviews on him from the past two weeks:

 

http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=118&f=1666&t=5239025

http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=118&f=1666&t=5190748

 

According to FilmStudy (and this guy knows his stuff), Grubbs is the guy who has been the relative disappointment. His play is better than last year, but not as big a step as we would have hoped.

 

Based on our roster, here is how I would rank our needs:

 

1. WR - this is pretty obvious, we need playmakers. We need a redzone threat, we need a big guy with strong hands and a big catching radius who is not scared to go over the middle.

2a. CB - Webb makes me feel a little better about this position. Ideally I would love to draft a potential #1 CB in the first round of the draft, so we can slide Foxworth over to the #2 corner spot and keep Webb in the slot. Webb is a monster in the slot and it would allow him to keep KR duties.

2b. TE - same with WRs, we need playmakers. Ideally a TE who has the speed to stretch the field.

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I think in July I evaluated the team as 9-7 this yr and with that not making the playoffs. So I have watched this whole yr with the expectation of no Ravens games in January. I have watched the players to see who is worth of returning.

 

There are a lot of these guys who are nobodies. Some dude in his 3rd yr that will never play. I cast a bunch of them off but they could return because they would be replaced with new guys who provide the same role.

 

Mostly this was looking at guys like Kelly Gregg (he is my favorite Raven ever) who does not look good. Also Pryce, Heap and all the guys who are old and coing to the end.

 

So if it is about 30% that I had gone it is more like 12-15% that I had any real opinion on.

 

Which leads me to ask what Cleetz asked in another thread...

 

What fun do you get from watching or cheering for the Ravens, then?

 

We may very well end up 9-7 and you should certainly take some pride (though I'd hope not joy) in predicting that correctly. You know your team. You read something right.

 

But what's the fun in deciding to looking at April? Especially with a team that's 6-5 with 5 games to play...

 

What happens to your "I've watched all year to see who we should bring back because there's no playoffs" if this team does make the playoffs? Is that your version of low expectations, low risk?

 

Personally, you sound like you are rooting for this team to finish 9-7 so you can feel good about your prediction. And it feels and sounds fairweather to me.

 

What did you expect with the Ravens last year? I remember my 8-8 prediction last year was about as high as anyone here. If you watched all season planning for no playoffs, then what the hell is the reason to watch? And what part do you take in the playoffs? "HEY! I never expected you all to be here, and even in week 10 I was telling everyone how we should start just looking at the draft, but we're here now so wooo!"

 

?

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Im not looking to April, well Maybe a little bit caus I go on vacation May 4th :>) But this team is on the playoff door, Am I disapointed? Yup guess after last years success, even though we didnt upgrade in the off season, I still figured we'd be in first place..With 5 to go, I see us winning out, I also see the Bengals losing 3 more games, so anything can happen.

 

Circle the calendar for Dec 17th, the Colts play the Jags, the Jags hold that last spot over us.

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Ali, Charles 38 Fullback He will try to win a spot during camp I guess.

Bannan, Justin 94 Defensive Tackle I am fine if he stays around but they may choose to go younger.

Barnes, Antwan 50 Outside Linebacker He has been a bust I think he is gone. He will be back competing for a spot, not sure he will make it.

Beck, John 12 Quarterback He may or maynot be here.

Birk, Matt 77 Center 6-4 He will start.

Burgess, Prescott 54 Outside Linebacker I think he is gone or just doing special teams. Ditto

Carr, Chris 25 Cornerback They would have to eat his contract so I expect him back. Ditto

Chester, Chris 65 Guard / Center I am not sure he will have a spot. For depth I love him to be back.

Clayton, Mark 89 Wide Receiver GONE. Not sure, one thing if their will not be a new CBO he will be back and probably a very likely scenario just now, with Mason likely to be retired I think they will get a new deal anyway, obviously Clayton is in no way in a position to demand the big money.

Cousins, Oniel 64 Tackle I hope he steps up to be that backup guy if not gone. One year left of his rookie contract, so going no where.

Cundiff, Billy 7 Kicker We will see. Ditto

Edwards, Dwan 93 Defensive Tackle He could be around. Ditto

Ellerbe, Dannell 59 Linebacker He might be starting or at least contributing.

Flacco, Joe 5 Quarterback Duh starter.

Foxworth, Domonique Cornerback He is locked in so he will go nowhere.

Gaither, Jared 71 Tackle Could be starting but I think he will need to show he is the man to get that new deal. He will be the most important move next year, OZ needs to give him the money, this is not Pashos, Mughelli.. this is a very talented LT who would be our corner stone for the next many years.

Gerard, K.J. 40 Cornerback You better show you can be here because they will be looking for CB's this off season. Ditto however he will be competing for a spot in next years TC.

Gooden, Tavares 56 Inside Linebacker I hope they try to turn him into a SS.

Gregg, Kelly 97 Defensive Tackle He may have come to the end of the line.

Grubbs, Ben 66 Guard P lease lock him down already. Not proved enough so fare.. and two years left of his rookie contract.

Hale, David 62 Guard / Tackle I think he is gone. Why him who is active in every game and not Cousins who is inactive in every game? Anyway he will be back next season.

Heap, Todd 86 Tight End It is the end.

Johnson, Jarret 95 Linebacker I love him but if we can get a 2nd rounder for him take it.

Jones, Edgar 84 Tight End Gone He is active in every game and he has that force that he can play O, D and ST.. a Value our HC loves.

Katula, Matt 70 Long Snapper Still snapping.

Koch, Sam 4 Punter Resign him.

Kruger, Paul 99 Linebacker / Defensive End Transitioning to LB.

Landry, Dawan 26 Safety Get rid of him. Disagree and I have a feeling that just like Billick/Rex did our new coaches Harbs/Mattison simply just love him... Btw I like him to be back

Lewis, Ray 52 Inside Linebacker Starting again but he is dropping off.

Mason, Derrick 85 Wide Receiver He will retire or head for a contender

McClain, Le'Ron 33 Fullback I hope he is a heavy RB.

McClain, Jameel 53 Linebacker Starting or major contribution.

McGahee, Willis 23 Running Back Gone

McKinney, Brandon 91 Defensive Tackle Looking to get younger and better.

Moll, Tony 79 Guard / Tackle Gone

Ngata, Haloti 92 Nose Tackle Lock him down already.

Oher, Michael 74 Tackle 6-4 Starting on the right or left depending on Gaither.

Parmele, Jalen 34 Running Back 3rd RB

Pryce, Trevor 90 Defensive Tackle Retire most likely.

Reed, Ed 20 Safety I would try to trade him but with his injury I don't see any takers. He also may retire.

Rice, Ray 27 Running Back Starting

Smith, L.J. 82 Tight End I hope they cut him.

Smith, Troy 10 Quarterback He is #2 unless someone is willing to give me a 4th rounder.

Suggs, Terrell 55 Outside Linebacker Starting

Talavou, Kelly 98 Nose Tackle May take Greggs spot

Tyree, David 17 Wide Receiver I don't know if he will have a spot.

Walker, Frank 41 Cornerback Cut the cord.

Washington, Kelley 15 Wide Receiver Bring him back. He needs to start He is a backup and a STer nothing more.

Webb, Lardarius 21 Cornerback Starting

Williams, Demetrius 87 Wide Receiver Gone

Williams, Cary 29 Cornerback I don't know a thing about him.

Yanda, Marshal 73 Guard / Tackle Starting RG.

Zbikowski, Tom 28 Safety I hope they let him play some SS.

 

Practice Squad

Drew, Davon 83 Tight End He better be in shape to make the squad or he should be gone.

Harper, Justin 14 Wide Receiver I will give him a shot to make the squad.

Mattison, Bryan 72 Guard/Tackle Get a new tackling dummy.

Paschal, Marcus 30 Cornerback I don't know

Reitz, Joe 76 Tackle I think he will be gone

Riley, Eron 13 Wide Receiver I hope he is the #3 WR.

Rodgers, Stefan 69 Tackle No idea

VanDeSteeg, William 68 Linebacker/Defensive End Get a new tackling dummy.

 

IR

Rolle, Samari 22 Cornerback Done

Ayanbadejo, Brendon 51 Linebacker He could contend for a starting spot but at least on Special teams.

Divens, Lamar 96 Defensive Tackle I don't know who he is.

Lawrence, Matt 32 Running Back He may also be the #3 RB

Nakamura, Haruki 43 Safety Let him play and see what he can do.

Phillips, Jason 58 Linebacker Don't know

Ryan, Greg Center Don't know

Saucedo, Lou Tackle Don't know

Smith, Marcus 81 Wide Receiver He better show up in camp

Sypniewski, Quinn 88 Tight End I hope he can comeback. He has done nothing for two years.

Terry, Adam 78 Tackle He is done.

Washington, Fabian 31 Cornerback He is a FA so I think he is going to be gone.

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There is a difference to being resigned and hoping for the worst. I am dispassionate about the results. I come at teams from the FO end. I was a sports mang major in school. I look at it from the mang end of building to the goal. I do believe that seasons are won for the most part before the first kickoff of the yr.

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There is a difference to being resigned and hoping for the worst. I am dispassionate about the results. I come at teams from the FO end. I was a sports mang major in school. I look at it from the mang end of building to the goal. I do believe that seasons are won for the most part before the first kickoff of the yr.

 

Resigned vs. hoping for the worst... there is a difference. But I don't know why you are resigned at all.

 

I am dispassionate about the results.

 

And that's where I would say you aren't a fan.

 

We play for the results. Every game. Every year. We watch for the results too.

 

Don't give me the sports management bullshit either. All respect to your education, but really. Flaunting a major in any business-related field is a joke. But it's also entirely unrelated to this discussion. There's too much junk science and not enough hard evidence used in deciding what makes 'good business practice' for it to be legit. I have a bias - business management, sports management, whatever... they aren't college majors. They shouldn't be at least. What, aside from trade secrets and failed entrepreneur opinion, do these majors learn?

 

Second, if you think Ozzie and Bisciotti aren't watching and hoping for good results this season, you're as delusional as Ray Lewis. Sure, there is an element of finding holes and looking forward at all times. But this season is alive and still going on, and they are invested in this season twice as much as next season.

 

Third, you are certainly right that most seasons are won or lost before the kickoff, to an extent. But what you view as a 9-7 team might be a 10-6 team. And it might be a playoff team. And if you don't care about that, then I don't care about your opinion. Because results ARE what matter.

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I disagree. When you see how things work it is never the same again. I can't just watch a game to be entertained anymore. I see where things went wrong. I see the TE and since I always look at what they are paid and evaluate their production verses other guys and get on them about it. I just can't sit and enjoy football as pure entertainment. I see it in it's pieces like chess board. I watch what all of them do and what if you got player X instaed of player Y.

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I'm actually going to go at this a little further because I find it interesting...

 

This Ravens team is, arguably, 4 individual plays away from being 10-1 right now. Less arguably, 3 plays from 9-2. Even less arguably, 2 plays from 8-3.

 

Vikings - Missed kick that, if made, wins the game.

Bengals 1 - Ray Lewis personal foul that, if not made, might end game

Colts - Billy Cundiff missed kick from inside 40, point difference in game

Patriots - Mark Clayton drop that ends game

 

By your logic and your theory, because results are so inconsequential, the team we have now at 6-5 is exactly the same as the possible 10-1, 9-2 and 8-3 teams that exist in some other dimension...

 

And to an extent, I can see that. If a single play is making a difference, then yes, we are very much the same team.

 

The Vikings game might be the perfect example of that, the Ravens played a wholly inconsistent and flawed game, and yet were one play from a victory. But a victory does not erase those flaws.

 

But, I take issue because the 10-1 team and 6-5 team are so very much different. I cannot believe that if this team were 10-1 right now by a difference of those four plays (and no other difference), that you would start this thread.

 

Why? Because there is, quite plainly, something to be said for winning 10 of 11 games. Perfect or imperfect within the wins, 10 wins is 10 wins. While we might have complaints about Foxworth, Landry, Washington, Carr, Walker, etc... It's exceptionally hard to call for someone's head when the outcomes are invariably in our favor.

 

At 10-1, we'd all question Fox and Landry, certainly. But we'd justify that, like it or not, they were a part of a 10-1 team. And the risk of attempting to replace a part is just as great as leaving it in.

 

And even if we were to discuss the implications of keeping or replacing Fox, Landry, Washington and any one else... it would almost certainly come at the end of the season, and certainly not with 5 games left to play. If you say otherwise, then you either are entirely dispassionate or simply misguided.

 

 

Further, by your logic, it would be very easy to argue that Ozzie's 2000 Super Bowl winning team was not his best. Because, again by your logic, the results are not the guiding factor. The 2000 team was exceptionally flawed and many expected it to do no better than 8 or 9 wins. But it did achieve more and it is certainly one of the best teams this franchise has seen. Perhaps rivaled by 2006's 13-3 team, but not by many others.

 

By your logic, we could argue that almost any team in Ravens history should be considered the best because, on a player by player, "overall long-term goal" analysis, they were 'worth more.' But the 2000 Ravens have rings, records and respect. No other team from this franchise comes close, at least to most observers.

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I disagree. When you see how things work it is never the same again. I can't just watch a game to be entertained anymore. I see where things went wrong. I see the TE and since I always look at what they are paid and evaluate their production verses other guys and get on them about it. I just can't sit and enjoy football as pure entertainment. I see it in it's pieces like chess board. I watch what all of them do and what if you got player X instaed of player Y.

 

And yet, that's just theory. Because no player, X Y or Z is going to make every play or be worth every penny.

 

The players we have achieve what they achieve, and we have to judge them on that. It's impossible to speculate about how another piece would work in a system.

 

Elvis Grbac's addition to the Ravens following their Super Bowl is a fine example. Few losses, on offense or defense. Grbac was, at the time, an enormous gain. He had averaged 25 touchdowns and to 14 picks in his previous two seasons. Dilfer had 11 picks in half a season with the Ravens.

 

But which team is more successful? By your logic, it would be hard to argue that the sum of the parts of 2001 should have been worth more than the sum of the parts of 2000. But they are not.

 

Where does your guide account for that? That in some cases, the WHOLE can be worth more than the SUM?

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And there we disagree. Grbac is a gain as long as you have a very good OL. We did not. Searcy was a walking injury and I screamed then about signing him. Flynn I have always thought was bad. Basically you had JO and Ed as the only stable parts to that OL. So yes Elvis was going to get the crap knocked out of him. I still say we would have won that last playoff game had Billick stowed his ego and played Cunningham when Grbac was falling apart.

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I disagree. When you see how things work it is never the same again. I can't just watch a game to be entertained anymore. I see where things went wrong. I see the TE and since I always look at what they are paid and evaluate their production verses other guys and get on them about it. I just can't sit and enjoy football as pure entertainment. I see it in it's pieces like chess board. I watch what all of them do and what if you got player X instaed of player Y.

 

And if you are a business major you should also realize that everyone does not always make perfect decisions, and the nature of the supply and demand model. Every team is competing for the best talent at the most affordable prices. It is basic economics, there is a scarce amount of resources allocated to a population (or talent to 32 teams). Not everyone will get the best deals. I think your theory is pointless, it is merely 20-20 vision. If you feel this way about football, what happens when you lose money in the stock market? Or if your house loses value? How does anything entertain you? If anything at all, you should be able to appreciate a win even more than the average person knowing how difficult it is to put together a team.

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Since we're looking ahead....I want that linebacker McLain from Alabama and definately we have to get Areanas...get on itg Ozzie!

 

There is bound to be some way we can trick Al Davis into trading us his 2011 1st round pick so that we can pick up Julio Jones as well. Those 3 Bama players look like beasts of the future in the NFL not to mention those RBs.

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If you give money to only those who warant it then you are much better off. Suggs should not have gotten that deal. It will go down like Cmac's. We only got a couple of solid seasons out of that deal. The writing was on the wall before you gave him the money. He was a drunk and a head case but he had value. They should have traded him.

 

This team needs to stop being in love with who they draft. Cut bait or when they have unsustainable value trade them.

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