UN Global Warming report is out

[thundercleetz]

Krugman citing new IPCC report -- fixing our policies and planning may not be nearly as expensive as thought.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/18/opinion/krugman-salvation-gets-cheap.html?hp&rref=opinion&_r=0

Really good article. Seems like we are getting to that point where some of these transitions are cost efficient, if we aren't already as Krugman pointed out. Heck, we are seeing it with a lot of these new energy star housing and building developments. Developers would not be doing this if it didn't make business sense.

 

The only thing we have to work on is to make sure these costs do not windfall directly on to the consumers. Going back to Energy Star communities, people pay a significant premium to live in these type of housing developments. Are we in a position as an economy to absorb some of these costs?

[thundercleetz]

On Global Warming, here's my perspective: what gets me passionate about it is not whether us humans will be able to live on the planet. If we kill ourselves off because of our own choices, then we deserve whatever we get. However, it is the harm that we are doing to those who cannot help themselves, animals. While as a society we worry and debate what will happen to humans, the effects are already being felt by other species. Sure, right now we are putting it off until we actually need to take action. However, that is completely neglecting our responsibility to protect or at least respect the life of other species. Just my thoughts at least.

 

So I do not know the exact details, but what are the exact hardline dates on Global Warming? For example, if we put on a full scale transition, what is the latest we could do that before the world goes to hell?

[papasmurfbell]

On Global Warming, from my perspective: what gets me passionate about it is not whether us humans will be able to live on the planet. If we kill ourselves off because of our own choices, then we deserve whatever we get. However, its the harm that we are doing to those who cannot help themselves, animals. While as a society we worry and debate what will happen to humans, the effects are already being felt by other species. Sure, right now we are putting it off until we actually need to take action. However, that is completely neglecting our to protect or at least respect the life of other species. Just my thoughts at least.

 

Totally agree.

[Spen]

On Global Warming, here's my perspective: what gets me passionate about it is not whether us humans will be able to live on the planet. If we kill ourselves off because of our own choices, then we deserve whatever we get. However, it is the harm that we are doing to those who cannot help themselves, animals. While as a society we worry and debate what will happen to humans, the effects are already being felt by other species. Sure, right now we are putting it off until we actually need to take action. However, that is completely neglecting our responsibility to protect or at least respect the life of other species. Just my thoughts at least.

 

Nice post. And even if we don't try do this because it's the right thing to do, we should worry about how changing an animals habitat or removing them from an area might have tons of effects that we couldn't even begin to guess.

Example:

http://www.filmsforaction.org/watch/how-wolves-change-rivers/

Edited April 19, 2014 by Spen

[vmax]

Nice find Spen. I would never have thought or imagined something like this.

 

But guys.....come on...I really care about the animals and all life.....but most of the humans that will be suffering and killed off are future innocents who did not cause this. They will suffer "the sins of the father". I can't look at my kids and think" they deserve to die." I know you didn't mean it this way.

 

I admit to being part of the problem. I knew this was true when I was a teenager...

 

 

 

Chief Seattle's Letter

"The President in Washington sends word that he wishes to buy our land. But how can you buy or sell the sky? the land? The idea is strange to us. If we do not own the freshness of the air and the sparkle of the water, how can you buy them?
Every part of the earth is sacred to my people. Every shining pine needle, every sandy shore, every mist in the dark woods, every meadow, every humming insect. All are holy in the memory and experience of my people.
We know the sap which courses through the trees as we know the blood that courses through our veins. We are part of the earth and it is part of us. The perfumed flowers are our sisters. The bear, the deer, the great eagle, these are our brothers. The rocky crests, the dew in the meadow, the body heat of the pony, and man all belong to the same family.
The shining water that moves in the streams and rivers is not just water, but the blood of our ancestors. If we sell you our land, you must remember that it is sacred. Each glossy reflection in the clear waters of the lakes tells of events and memories in the life of my people. The water's murmur is the voice of my father's father.
The rivers are our brothers. They quench our thirst. They carry our canoes and feed our children. So you must give the rivers the kindness that you would give any brother.
If we sell you our land, remember that the air is precious to us, that the air shares its spirit with all the life that it supports. The wind that gave our grandfather his first breath also received his last sigh. The wind also gives our children the spirit of life. So if we sell our land, you must keep it apart and sacred, as a place where man can go to taste the wind that is sweetened by the meadow flowers.
Will you teach your children what we have taught our children? That the earth is our mother? What befalls the earth befalls all the sons of the earth.
This we know: the earth does not belong to man, man belongs to the earth. All things are connected like the blood that unites us all. Man did not weave the web of life, he is merely a strand in it. Whatever he does to the web, he does to himself.
One thing we know: our God is also your God. The earth is precious to him and to harm the earth is to heap contempt on its creator.
Your destiny is a mystery to us. What will happen when the buffalo are all slaughtered? The wild horses tamed? What will happen when the secret corners of the forest are heavy with the scent of many men and the view of the ripe hills is blotted with talking wires? Where will the thicket be? Gone! Where will the eagle be? Gone! And what is to say goodbye to the swift pony and then hunt? The end of living and the beginning of survival.
When the last red man has vanished with this wilderness, and his memory is only the shadow of a cloud moving across the prairie, will these shores and forests still be here? Will there be any of the spirit of my people left?
We love this earth as a newborn loves its mother's heartbeat. So, if we sell you our land, love it as we have loved it. Care for it, as we have cared for it. Hold in your mind the memory of the land as it is when you receive it. Preserve the land for all children, and love it, as God loves us.
As we are part of the land, you too are part of the land. This earth is precious to us. It is also precious to you.
One thing we know - there is only one God. No man, be he Red man or White man, can be apart. We ARE all brothers after all."

 

.....but I didn't yell and rebel loud enough. I did not think we could be so foolish and stupid or that the consequences would be this severe in such a short time or that they might be irreversible.

I just wanted that 454 engine.....

[thundercleetz]

Sorry max I don't have sympathy for us humans. We have all the tools we need to change this thing and are not making it happen.

 

As humans we have the mental ability to determine whether or not to bring life into the world. If we get to the point (let's say a few generations down the line when the planet is really hurting) where we know we are unable to provide our children a certain quality of life, whether that is in the parent's control or not, we shouldn't bring them into the world. We have this type of consciousness as humans. Animals do not have this ability. They truly cannot help themselves and are suffering right now.

 

No doubt in my mind, we deserve what we get as humans. Humans have performed disguisting acts throughout all of history, whether it has been to each other, the planet, or other forms of life. Karma is bound to catch up with us.

 

While on the topic of animals, our current system of producing food is absolutely disguisting and the worst form of humanity. Every individual has a finite amount of resources. Me personally, I value consciousness of animal rights and ethics very high, more than the environment. If I had the resources to spend that's where I'd allocate them to make a change.

[papasmurfbell]

Sorry max I don't have sympathy for us humans. We have all the tools we need to change this thing and are not making it happen.

 

As humans we have the mental ability to determine whether or not to bring life into the world. If we get to the point (let's say a few generations down the line when the planet is really hurting) where we know we are unable to provide our children a certain quality of life, whether that is in the parent's control or not, we shouldn't bring them into the world. We have this type of consciousness as humans. Animals do not have this ability. They truly cannot help themselves and are suffering right now.

 

No doubt in my mind, we deserve what we get as humans. Humans have performed disguisting acts throughout all of history, whether it has been to each other, the planet, or other forms of life. Karma is bound to catch up with us.

 

While on the topic of animals, our current system of producing food is absolutely disguisting and the worst form of humanity. Every individual has a finite amount of resources. Me personally, I value consciousness of animal rights and ethics very high, more than the environment. If I had the resources to spend that's where I'd allocate them to make a change.

[oldcrow]

You know what really gets my water on fire

 

 

 

FUCKING FRACKING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

This is the most fucking destructive industry on our own soil.

People actually do not believe that pumping all this shit into the earth is causing any fucking harm.

 

 

Earthquakes !! hello ???????????? Fire Water!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

GOD HATES US ALL!!!!

[vmax]

Sorry max I don't have sympathy for us humans. We have all the tools we need to change this thing and are not making it happen.

 

As humans we have the mental ability to determine whether or not to bring life into the world. If we get to the point (let's say a few generations down the line when the planet is really hurting) where we know we are unable to provide our children a certain quality of life, whether that is in the parent's control or not, we shouldn't bring them into the world. We have this type of consciousness as humans. Animals do not have this ability. They truly cannot help themselves and are suffering right now.

 

No doubt in my mind, we deserve what we get as humans. Humans have performed disguisting acts throughout all of history, whether it has been to each other, the planet, or other forms of life. Karma is bound to catch up with us.

 

While on the topic of animals, our current system of producing food is absolutely disguisting and the worst form of humanity. Every individual has a finite amount of resources. Me personally, I value consciousness of animal rights and ethics very high, more than the environment. If I had the resources to spend that's where I'd allocate them to make a change.

 

I'm all in on the karma thing. That's true. You reap what you sow.

And we really haven't advanced much since the first men. We kill anything different from us or anybody who has what we want or need. If you are differen,t then we try to make you the same as "us". Different is translated as "inferior"...weird, strange, abnormal...then problematic...then "must do away with".

 

As for how we slaughter animals and consume their dead carcass, I became a vegetarian over 12 years ago. I can't take the high road on that because it happened purely by accident. My daughter would not eat meat so I had to make meals for her. I started to eat them, 1 meat free day became 2...then 3...then I began to fell 100% better and have way more energy and mental clarity. I run into guys from my high school class and I look 10 years younger...I feel that way too. They all have something wrong with their bodies. Anyway...I'd be eating meat today if that hadn't happened. Glad it did.

We're a Whole Foods family.

 

papa...thanks for posting the material on us not living in a free society anymore. It doesn't make me feel any better, but maybe with awareness comes change.

That's what I hope this huge catastrophe leads to...o. Positive, life giving and building change. We either evolve, take the next step or go the way of the dinosaur.

 

We are really pissing away a damn good thing.

[papasmurfbell]

You know what really gets my water on fire

 

 

 

FUCKING FRACKING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

This is the most fucking destructive industry on our own soil.

People actually do not believe that pumping all this shit into the earth is causing any fucking harm.

 

 

Earthquakes !! hello ???????????? Fire Water!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

GOD HATES US ALL!!!!

So agree.

[thundercleetz]

As for how we slaughter animals and consume their dead carcass, I became a vegetarian over 12 years ago. I can't take the high road on that because it happened purely by accident. My daughter would not eat meat so I had to make meals for her. I started to eat them, 1 meat free day became 2...then 3...then I began to fell 100% better and have way more energy and mental clarity. I run into guys from my high school class and I look 10 years younger...I feel that way too. They all have something wrong with their bodies. Anyway...I'd be eating meat today if that hadn't happened. Glad it did.

We're a Whole Foods family.

Really good to hear. I cannot have gluten so being a vegetarian would be hard for me as I cannot eat a lot of the carbs and protein substitutes most vegetarians eat. I was actually a vegetarian for almost a year when I was trying to figure out what was wrong with my stomach (it was gluten). I don't have an aversion myself to eating meat. However, my goal for when I graduate and hopefully get some more disposal income is to make sure my meat consumption at home is entirely free range and ethically produced, and my eggs are cage free. It really kills me right now the type of meat I consume, but it's what I have to do for now.

[papasmurfbell]

[papasmurfbell]

[papasmurfbell]

http://news.yahoo.com/florida-ground-zero-sea-level-rise-194937074.html

 

Florida is 'Ground Zero' for sea level rise

Miami Beach (United States) (AFP) - Warm sunshine and sandy beaches make south Florida and its crown city, Miami, a haven for tourists, but the area is increasingly endangered by sea level rise, experts said Tuesday.

During a special Senate hearing held in Miami Beach, Senator Bill Nelson described south Florida as "Ground Zero" for climate change and its threats to coastal communities.

The perils for Miami are particularly concerning because it has the most assets at stake in the world in terms of assets like homes, beachfront hotels and businesses, according to the World Resources Institute, a global research firm.

Not only is there $14.7 billion in beachfront property, but Miami is also home to the world's fourth largest population of people vulnerable to sea level rise, the WRI said.

Nearly 20 million people live in the entire state of Florida, and about three quarters live on the coast, said Nelson.

- Waters rising -

The waters around south Florida are rising fast. The Florida coast has already seen 12 inches (30 centimeters) of sea rise since 1870.

Another nine inches to two feet (23 to 61 centimeters) are anticipated by 2060, said the WRI.

Miami is located just four feet (1.22 meters) above sea level.

"We are on this massive substrate of limestone and coquina rock which is porous and infused by water," Nelson said at the hearing, held on the 44th anniversary of Earth Day.

"You could put up a dyke but it is not going to do any good," he added, describing the land beneath Florida as "like Swiss cheese."

"So we have to come up with new, innovative kinds of solutions," said Nelson, a Democratic senator who was born in Miami.

The mayor of Miami Beach, Philip Levine, said residents are commonly seen wading through knee-deep waters to get to their homes and businesses during high tides and floods.

"This reality is not acceptable and it is getting worse," said Levine.

Officials are investigating the use of tidal control valves and new water pumps to improve drainage, with three pumps planned for installation before October's high tides, Levine said.

"We are projecting the cost of being anywhere from three and four hundred million dollars," he said.

Discussions are also under way on urban designs and city plans that could better equip the area for rising sea levels, he said.

- High costs -

Climate change may bring more severe weather, warned Piers Sellers, deputy director of the science and exploration directorate at NASA.

"What does all of this mean to Florida? By the end of the century the intensity of hurricanes, including rainfall near the centers of the hurricanes, may increase," Sellers said.

"Rising sea levels and coastal development will likely increase the impact of hurricanes and other coastal storms on those coastal communities and infrastructure."

Fred Bloetcher, a professor of engineering at Florida Atlantic University, said sea level rise is a present threat to "nearly six million Floridians, their economy and lifestyle, 3.7 trillion dollars in property in southeast Florida alone and a $260 billion annual economy."

Meanwhile, insurance companies are still unprepared to cope, said Megan Linkin, a natural hazards expert at Swiss Re Global Partnerships.

"Presently I know of no insurance or reinsurance company that directly includes the risk of climate change," she told the hearing.

"And that is because our product is typically contracted on an annual basis, and in that time period the impact of any climate changes -- including sea level rise -- are too small and insignificant and without scientific consensus to responsibly include in our model and approach."

Despite the risks, tourism continues to boom in Florida.

In 2013, 14.2 million visitors spent nearly $23 billion in the Miami area, said William Talbert, president of the greater Miami Convention and Visitors Bureau.

Last year also marked the first time in history that more visitors came from foreign countries than from the United States, he said.

 

[dc.]

Watching a bit of Fox News today (I know - but one must know his enemy)... They were discussing climate change and asking why climate change believers must be so critical of dissent... They concluded it must be because climate change scientists must want to control our lives and must fear true discussion.

 

I still don't understand why some don't understand that scientific fact is not really meant to be debated the way that so much else is. At a certain point debating science about climate is like debating Galileo on heliocentrism, "why must I believe?"

 

Some great article recently on evolution that says as much about how "debates" like those featuring Bill Bye recently are actually hurting science by making the other side seem like a valid side worth discussing in debate!

[papasmurfbell]

I would love to go on Fox News and say that they would agree with the Inquisition. They would rather use an ancient text that was not even written by its authors as fact against measured scientific reality.

[dc.]

This segment I watched started every question with a serious lead - unbelievable almost- about how bad or untrustworthy climate science is, making it just so easy for the other speakers to just agree with such dumbness.

 

Meanwhile, my favorite was the host holding up a graph of global temp and simply saying "temps were high here and here and here and really high here" as if he even understood what he was looking at...

[papasmurfbell]

You notice they never have scientists on to talk about it.

[dc.]

Science whats?

[papasmurfbell]

Hey I have an idea. Go on say fox and friends. You pull out a gun and tell them 97% of scientists believe the bullet will kill you. But you don't believe them right? So you want to disprove them by putting this gun to your head and pulling the trigger.

[papasmurfbell]

http://www.hulu.com/watch/449508?playlist_id=1623

[thundercleetz]

As sad as it is that Fox News disputes science, there are two underlying factors here:

 

1. lobbyists which we have talked about;

 

2. It is a business, and their business is driven by ratings (among other things that are linked with it). This means someone is watching the network or they wouldn't still be on the air. I've only glanced at the numbers, but their high ratings indicate there's a large amount of the population who honestly believes what is being broadcasted, or at least wants to be told so. In other words they are hitting a target audience where the money is.

 

What I'm saying, why does this surprise anyone? If Fox suddenly shifted their views, you'd have numerous other stations pop up trying to get that lobbyist money, advertising revenue, and grab the target audience Fox gave up. It just gets me, people keep turning into Fox News then complain what they see. What did you expect? They don't hide it, it's what gets them the ratings.

 

Bottom line, the problem here is education. Focus on science in schools, and completely enforce a separation of church and state and we don't have this problem. People then are educated to decide for themselves and don't put up with nonsense.

 

Me myself, I don't watch cable news. First I don't have cable, and second as mentioned above, it's a business so I question the motivation behind every story. I can form my own opinion on an event I don't need to pay anyone to do so for me.

[thundercleetz]

I still don't understand why some don't understand that scientific fact is not really meant to be debated the way that so much else is. At a certain point debating science about climate is like debating Galileo on heliocentrism, "why must I believe?"

 

Some great article recently on evolution that says as much about how "debates" like those featuring Bill Bye recently are actually hurting science by making the other side seem like a valid side worth discussing in debate!

Bingo. Then you end up having people believe Bill Nye "lost" the debate simply because of the emotional delivery and not the actual content. I think Bill Nye has gotten a little too political himself and frustration baited him into doing that debate. Most scientists would have just ignored it.

 

Although, in you're into something more philosophical, the Deepak Chopra Richard Dawkins debate is at least stimulating.

[dc.]

You're totally right on the reasons and motivations... But the scary thing is education can't fix it when:

 

1. Parents teach students to ignore certain lessons they disagree with (silly but can't tell you how many times students say, "actually..." and then recite crap talking points from their favorite politicians.)

 

2. Education is getting lobbied to death too! Scary to see how many states are trying to require creationism be taught with evolution as competing theories or climate deniers being taught along side science. I even have to continue teaching disproven economic theory because of "balance" (there's more validity there as economic theory is far less secure than natural science, but still frustrating).

 

I know you certainly weren't talking just about education on these issues but also simply critical thinking, but even that is so hard to teach because of these other factors. It's really wild the preconceptions students bring into class and how stubbornly they hold them regardless of evidence. Most can't even effectively play devils advocate, which requires at least acknowledging other views... I could continue on a massive teaching rant about bad teaching, but I'll spare you all.

[papasmurfbell]

As sad as it is that Fox News disputes science, there are two underlying factors here:

 

1. lobbyists which we have talked about;

 

2. It is a business, and their business is driven by ratings (among other things that are linked with it). This means someone is watching the network or they wouldn't still be on the air. I've only glanced at the numbers, but their high ratings indicate there's a large amount of the population who honestly believes what is being broadcasted, or at least wants to be told so. In other words they are hitting a target audience where the money is.

 

What I'm saying, why does this surprise anyone? If Fox suddenly shifted their views, you'd have numerous other stations pop up trying to get that lobbyist money, advertising revenue, and grab the target audience Fox gave up. It just gets me, people keep turning into Fox News then complain what they see. What did you expect? They don't hide it, it's what gets them the ratings.

 

Bottom line, the problem here is education. Focus on science in schools, and completely enforce a separation of church and state and we don't have this problem. People then are educated to decide for themselves and don't put up with nonsense.

 

Me myself, I don't watch cable news. First I don't have cable, and second as mentioned above, it's a business so I question the motivation behind every story. I can form my own opinion on an event I don't need to pay anyone to do so for me.

Foxes audience is dying very quickly. When the old men are dead I wonder if Fox pivots.

 

 

Bingo. Then you end up having people believe Bill Nye "lost" the debate simply because of the emotional delivery and not the actual content. I think Bill Nye has gotten a little too political himself and frustration baited him into doing that debate. Most scientists would have just ignored it.

 

Although, in you're into something more philosophical, the Deepak Chopra Richard Dawkins debate is at least stimulating.

Here is the problem with the Nye debate. He is not a climate scientist. Of course he has knowledge about the subject but that is not his thing. Also that guy he debated ignored any facts that were brought up. I am not sure if that debate should have happened. It is the arguing with assholes concept.