Harbs says Pats six-man package cheap, deceptive

[dc.]

I generally hate the whining but I think Harbs has a point. The sub rules say you can't have more than five eligible players on the field and that when there are subs of any kind, the D has the right to adjust/sub on its own. The strategy on those plays clearly picked on both of those rules a little. Legal, but I bet there will be some specific timing adjustment in the future, just like with any other hurry-up sub.

 

Brady's response was read the rule book.

 

This is also what Harbaughs bench personal foul was for. He didn't think the refs were totally understanding how that subbing should be dealt with in terms of allowing D adjustment.

 

I'm still wondering where Brady's PF for practically spitting on the ref when screaming was? Almost any other player gets that in the gave of an official and gets flagged.

[tsylvester]

I thought the play in question was fantastic from a design point and not cheating. Sometimes you just have to give credit where it is due.

[cravnravn]

Tammy was upset because McPhee gave her a nudge with his knee, wait til next week when the NFL gets what it wants a Tammy vs Puss Puss AFC championship, there will be more laundry on the field then e er, the one that cries the most will go to the super bowl.

[vmax]

Glad you posted this topic dc.

 

The Ravens didn't need to read the rule book. The refs did. They did not let the Ravens know who was declared eligible and who was declared ineligible and allow then time to adjust.

How often have you heard a ref announce "#63 is an eligible receiver" over the PA?

Now that I know why Harbaugh drew the penalty I'm glad that he did. It was the only thing he could do or the Pats would have run up 2 more scores using this lapse in fair gamesmanship.

 

What the Pats did was legal. Deception is part of the game.

What the Refs did was aid the deception. Basically they knew a receiver was ineligible and would not give that knowledge to the Ravens...so they were "in on it" with the Pats.

Edited January 11, 2015 by vmax

[dc.]

I agree it (they, technically there were three) was a great design. But I still agree that just like when the hurry up became popular and some times were tweaked/emphasized, we will see the same thing here.

 

Just seems weird you can line up six normally eligible guys - all as wide outs - murmur that one is technically ineligible, and then quick snap. And I think the fact that this is about the only time it's ever been done gives some evidence to how shady a move it is. Brady's response echoes that to me.

[dc.]

Glad you posted this topic dc.

 

The Ravens didn't need to read the rule book. The refs did. They did not let the Ravens know who was declared eligible and who was declared ineligible and allow then time to adjust.

How often have you heard a ref announce "#63 is an eligible receiver" over the PA?

Now that I know why Harbaugh drew the penalty I'm glad that he did. It was the only thing he could do or the Pats would have run up 2 more scores using this lapse in fair gamesmanship.

 

What the Pats did was legal. Deception is part of the game.

What the Refs did was aid the deception. Basically they knew a receiver was ineligible and would not give that knowledge to the Ravens...so they were "in on it" with the Pats.

The refs did announce it, though it didn't get as much attention as some other games. The bigger issue to me was the quick snap to follow - not allowing any adjustment.

[vmax]

Yea...the rule has to be tweaked...and that's the genius of Belichek. He saw a flaw in the rule...a grey area, an area that he could exploit to his advantage and attacked it.

As the saying goes; "In confusion, there is profit."

[tsylvester]

Glad you posted this topic dc.

 

The Ravens didn't need to read the rule book. The refs did. They did not let the Ravens know who was declared eligible and who was declared ineligible and allow then time to adjust.

How often have you heard a ref announce "#63 is an eligible receiver" over the PA?

Now that I know why Harbaugh drew the penalty I'm glad that he did. It was the only thing he could do or the Pats would have run up 2 more scores using this lapse in fair gamesmanship.

 

What the Pats did was legal. Deception is part of the game.

What the Refs did was aid the deception. Basically they knew a receiver was ineligible and would not give that knowledge to the Ravens...so they were "in on it" with the Pats.

 

 

 

Yes, the ref did announce what numbered player declared him self eligable and in eligable. I heard him announce it, as they always do. The problem was, the Ravens defense did not pay attention.

[vmax]

OK. I didn't hear or notice any announcement...must have missed it like the Ravens.

[cravnravn]

I didn't hear it either, Collins worth commented on it after the fact.

[dc.]

Announced or not, it's about the quick snap. Each time, they only checked in as ineligible and announced it after breaking the huddle - not before.

 

So they bring in six eligible players, the Ravens bring in a corresponding package ( or try, because it doesn't exist, because it's illegal to have six eligible players), then as the approach the line one player is - at random to the D- declared ineligible and the ball is snapped within a few seconds... There's a gap there.

[vmax]

Nice explanation there dc.

 

I have the feeling Belichek sand bag'd this and the Edelman TD pass all season to use just for this game. He had to find a way to beat the Ravens because they are his biggest opponent in the playoffs...and he did....just barely. Brilliant coaching.

[oldno82]

Announced or not, it's about the quick snap. Each time, they only checked in as ineligible and announced it after breaking the huddle - not before.

 

So they bring in six eligible players, the Ravens bring in a corresponding package ( or try, because it doesn't exist, because it's illegal to have six eligible players), then as the approach the line one player is - at random to the D- declared ineligible and the ball is snapped within a few seconds... There's a gap there.

 

Yup, the issue here is the quick snap with no time for the D to adjust. It's legal but a poor rule and it will get changed.

[Tornado700]

Just add it to the book of Patriot cheating.

[dc.]

I actually just watched the video of Harbaugh answering questions on this - available on The Sun and ESPN.

 

The report on ESPN at first made this sound like Harbs was really whining. But he actually was not only incredibly calm (I mean, not an ounce of worked-up - just matter of fact) but also was not really calling out the Pats for it. He actually had practically the whole convo we just did. "This is what they did - I think we deserved some time to figure out who was actually eligible" was pretty much the gist of his gripe.

 

His one shot was a no comment to, "would you consider this cheap or dirty?" "I'm not going to comment on that."

[TAPLOOK]

Glad you posted this topic dc.

 

The Ravens didn't need to read the rule book. The refs did. They did not let the Ravens know who was declared eligible and who was declared ineligible and allow then time to adjust.

How often have you heard a ref announce "#63 is an eligible receiver" over the PA?

Now that I know why Harbaugh drew the penalty I'm glad that he did. It was the only thing he could do or the Pats would have run up 2 more scores using this lapse in fair gamesmanship.

 

What the Pats did was legal. Deception is part of the game.

What the Refs did was aid the deception. Basically they knew a receiver was ineligible and would not give that knowledge to the Ravens...so they were "in on it" with the Pats.

 

 

Two mistakes the Ravens made. Harbaugh needed to call a TO or the D needed to drop into a zone which is standard MO with every team in the league with coverage confusion pre-snap (if you're not going to call a TO of course). A system with a backup was ignored and the penalty was just stupid coaching.

[papasmurfbell]

It is a smart play. They stayed within the rules and found a loophole.

[TAPLOOK]

 

Yup, the issue here is the quick snap with no time for the D to adjust. It's legal but a poor rule and it will get changed.

 

 

No it won't.

[dc.]

 

 

No it won't.

It will be a point of emphasis, not a change as nothing illegal was done. But like with the hurry up changes over the last few years, and allowing time for subs, this will get some attention.

 

It was smart, legal and even if the D knew it was coming, it would be hard to adjust to - Verneer even though ineligible ran a few play action moves towards Brady, when if the DB knew not to cover him, how does the DL or LB crew not bite in the fake in the moment? - but that doesn't mean the way it was executed was in the spirit of the substitution rules.