Wow Incognito got screwed

[tsylvester]

But you do not work in an NFL locker room. Things are supposed to be kept in house. When he did tell someone they told him to deal with it. The whole culture there was toxic.

 

 

 

Yes, told to him by an underling coach. As I said, head coaches have an open door policy. He, being an educated man (as we keep hearing) and his parents, being very well educated as we keep hearing, should have known to just go up the food chain; problem solved.

 

To a person outside, yes it looks like bullying, hostile work place. To those inside, it is normal or just above. There is a reason most if not all the players spoken to on the Phins and in the NFl have takne Richie's side. To this day, most when asked say they would rather have Incognito than Martin on thier team.

[papasmurfbell]

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/text-martin-parents-struggle-depression-article-1.1614955

 

Martin: I figured out a major source of my anxiety. I'm a push over, a people pleaser. I avoid confrontation whenever I can, I always want everyone to like me. I let people talk about me, say anything to my face, and I just take it, laugh it off, even when I know they are intentionally trying to disrespect me. I mostly blame the soft schools I went to, which fostered within me a feeling that I'm a huge p----, as I never got into fights. I used to get verbally bullied every day in middle school and high school, by kids that are half my size. I would never fight back, just get sad & feel like no one wanted to be my friend, when in fact I was just being socially awkward. Most people in that situation are witty & quick with sarcastic replies, I never have been. I'm awkward around people a lot of the time because I simply don't know how to act around them . . .

Martin's mother: My first thought is that I am glad you wrote this down as a way to start figuring it out. There are people in the world with their own insecurities and they tend to be bullies and confront people. Dealing with them can be a challenge. I think when you feel really good about yourself they won't bother you as much because you won't let them define you. This fits into wanting to please and be liked. Some people out there are not worth it. We do live in a bubble. Financial and professional success is sheltering. Which is both good and bad. I think the NFL has a disproportionate share of people who are obscure but masking it with aggression. Your profession is really difficult with measurement and evaluation every week. So we need to build up you liking you. This is where some professional help would be good. They can help you structure your thoughts. And that whole brain chemistry thing is real. You may need some additional seratonin. . .

 

Martin: I care about my legacy as a professional athlete. But I'm miserable currently. A therapist & medication won't help me gain the respect of my teammates. I really don't know what to do Mom.. . . I just always avoid confrontation, which is what I've always done, and that leads to [people] perceiving you as soft. I did it at Stanford, and didn't gain anyone's respect until I became a star. Same thing in high school. I had no respect til I became a prospect.

Martin: People call me a N----- to my face. Happened 2 days ago. And I laughed it off. Because I am too nice of a person. They say terrible things about my sister. I don't do anything. I suppose it's white private school conditioning, turning the other cheek.

Martin's father: They think n----- is okay because black people use it. Tell them you don't use it and it is never okey and if they do it again then they can kiss your black ass. Likewise say that your sister is a Madonna. If they say it again they can kiss your ass. If they do say either again then just stare at them give them and give them your finger. 16 Just so you know, I punked out many times including over nigger. Also over just being black. Mot proud of it in the least. It is just a matter of understanding your own strength. Had 3 white boys outside of a bowling alley calling me n-----. I backed down. Had a Harvard ass---- talk about my suntan. I backed down. Just stay who you are. Also, I learned how to pop a bully in his mouth and kicked one in his balls.

Martin: I'm never gonna change. I got punked again today. Like a little b----. And I never do anything about it. I was sobbing in a rented yacht bathroom earlier.

Martin: I just don't really see the point in things. It's a major accomplishment for me if I brush my teeth or eat more than 1 meal in a day on off days. It's not that I'm sad, just unmotivated.

Martin: I just feel trapped. I feel like I have no agency in my life. Too many expectations. I'm losing my will to compete, which is the scariest thing an athlete can ever say.

 

 

[dc.]

TS - First, good for you.

 

But my point was this: you have previously said (and many, many others here and nationally), that this is "part of the game" and "part of the locker room." And pretty much said Martin needed to toughen up.

 

That argument is mutually exclusive to your present argument about how he should have just reported it.

 

The second flaw with "just report it" is ... he did. Maybe not in the order he did. But let's say he follows your plan. You said the harasser got fired. Incognito gets fired. You also say others involved who didn't listen got suspended. In this case, if he works his way up to the GM, that would mean the head coach gets suspended for this situation. That would be even bigger news than this event is now. Think about it, NFL head coach suspended for allowing workplace harassment!

 

And of course we come back to - the entire situation would still be, as it is presently, chalked up to a guy who "just couldn't take it."

 

So there is a major disconnect between the two pieces of argument you are making.

 

 

Lastly - the few articles I saw on who you'd want as a teammate, Martin always won - not by much, but he did. In several, the majority was "neither." http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9945888/most-players-survey-want-richie-incognito

[tsylvester]

TS - First, good for you.

 

But my point was this: you have previously said (and many, many others here and nationally), that this is "part of the game" and "part of the locker room." And pretty much said Martin needed to toughen up.

 

That argument is mutually exclusive to your present argument about how he should have just reported it.

 

The second flaw with "just report it" is ... he did. Maybe not in the order he did. But let's say he follows your plan. You said the harasser got fired. Incognito gets fired. You also say others involved who didn't listen got suspended. In this case, if he works his way up to the GM, that would mean the head coach gets suspended for this situation. That would be even bigger news than this event is now. Think about it, NFL head coach suspended for allowing workplace harassment!

 

And of course we come back to - the entire situation would still be, as it is presently, chalked up to a guy who "just couldn't take it."

 

So there is a major disconnect between the two pieces of argument you are making.

 

 

Lastly - the few articles I saw on who you'd want as a teammate, Martin always won - not by much, but he did. In several, the majority was "neither." http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9945888/most-players-survey-want-richie-incognito

 

 

 

I see your point DC, but they are not necessarily exclusive. One can toughen up and speak up at the same time. As you read from papa, Martin had this issues since middle school. Now, I am no psychologist, but this tells me what happened in Miami was just the straw. He blames his teachers from middle school, high school, now, his coaches & teammates for why he is an introvert and unable to deal with criticism and or insults. He refers to dealing with insults by fighting, rather than walking away or saying something to some one who can help. He said himself, fighting was not his thing, but clearly walking away was not his thing either because he bottld it up and finally exploded from all the years of not knowing how to deal with HIS ISSUE. Thankfully, he just turned over a table and walked out.

 

Now, I am sure, as a big kid, his teachers likely would have said "man up" you are bigger than them. At the same time, I bet his father would have said the same thing; defend your self.

 

It has long been the mantra- you fight a bully to get them to stop. Even if you lose, you win; respect. Today, that does not apply simply because said bully may have a knife or gun, it was not like that when I was a kid.

 

Even so, he is an introvert plain & simple and his parents, not their fault, did not see it and did not get him help when he was younger. I agree with him, don't get me wrong, if he was offended, they were wrong. But I stand by what I said, if that was the normal talk between the teammates, how do we blame Incognito and the other players for keeping it up if no one told them they were essentailly hurting Martin?

[cravnravn]

It doesn't help the cause that incognito is bi polar

[dc.]

 

 

finally exploded from all the years of not knowing how to deal with HIS ISSUE.

 

His issue? Isn't it the issue of the people hurling insults and harassment?

 

And lastly, when you (and the world) have said forever that you just need to "man up" and "this is how it goes in the locker room" ... how much of an option is there to "deal with it?" Deal with it by reporting it and you're in trouble... like now. There is no end game but for someone to get in trouble.

[thesteelhurtin]

 

His issue? Isn't it the issue of the people hurling insults and harassment?

 

And lastly, when you (and the world) have said forever that you just need to "man up" and "this is how it goes in the locker room" ... how much of an option is there to "deal with it?" Deal with it by reporting it and you're in trouble... like now. There is no end game but for someone to get in trouble.

you deal with it by getting in the guys face and telling him you aren't going to take anymore of his shit.

[Spen]

Other than shutting up about it and/or never being bothered by it in the first place, I am not sure there is any way Martin could win with most people.

[dc.]

As is proof by Steel's comments above

[thesteelhurtin]

As is proof by Steel's comments above

Like it's been said it's the locker room mentality almost like a pack of dogs especially when talking about linemen

[tsylvester]

 

His issue? Isn't it the issue of the people hurling insults and harassment?

 

And lastly, when you (and the world) have said forever that you just need to "man up" and "this is how it goes in the locker room" ... how much of an option is there to "deal with it?" Deal with it by reporting it and you're in trouble... like now. There is no end game but for someone to get in trouble.

 

 

 

Yes DC, he has an issue with people, with not being able/wanting to risk upsetting them, facing the loss of their friendship. You keep overlooking the fact, the fact, that the players involved thought the language was fine, normal ways of having fun. They spoke to each other that way, so when Martin came into the fold, they spoke to him like that and were never told that it was unacceptable.

 

Look, I don't like that type of language. So much so, I won't watch a tv show or a movie with such language; even when my friends want to get together to see a certain movie or show. That is my "issue" not theirs for wanting to watch those types of movies.

 

In this case, Martin let them think they could talk to him that way, even participated in it, confirming to them, it was all right.

 

 

So yes, everyone is to blame here at the same time, no one is to blame for all of this.

 

The media had a great opportunity to talk about introverts and bipolar and how to deal with coworkers, friends who are this way. But they chose the most popular; flat out bullying which is clear, was not the case here.

 

Martin might have felt bullied, but the intent by the players was not to bully.

[dc.]

Like it's been said it's the locker room mentality almost like a pack of dogs especially when talking about linemen

And like it's been said, this is exactly the kind of "mentality" that makes an employer liable.

 

Let's really play this out once more...

 

If he stands up and say "I don't like this." Do you think it gets better or worse for him? According to you and others, my best guess is that everyone's response is "you don't fit in here" or "toughen up, pansy." In which case, saying something - anything - makes a bigger problem.

 

Anyway, let's say after being told that he should just get used to it, he responds like this:

 

you deal with it by getting in the guys face and telling him you aren't going to take anymore of his shit.

 

I can see that working out well too. The rookie saying such things to the clique of lineman who are "like a pack of dogs." More likely I imagine a bigger problem long-term. I also imagine a fight breaking out at some point. Both positive options.

 

But let's just play this one step further. A fight breaks out. Well, that leads to some suspensions and perhaps some investigation, right? If Martin is suspended or in any way given a hard time, you know he's going to "go upstairs" and say "here's what was going on" - in which case, well, here we are. If Incognito is suspended, we wind up with a big question about, well, "what got him suspended" and then I bet his buddy Pouncey comes out and says, "Nothing wrong with Richie, it was all Jon." And that... well, that again starts to look like where we are now. Doesn't it?

 

So you can see why Spen, myself and thousands of others might say, "Hmmm - doesn't seem like there's a way out of this for Martin." And why, legally, the team/league are at fault. And every time someone says, "Just deal with it," that makes the point even more.

[dc.]

TS - I have to disagree again.

 

Are there things Martin could have done differently? Certainly. And he does have his issues.

 

But the abuse is the issue of the abuser. And you can say Incognito wasn't intending to be a bully, but you don't know that. It sure looks like, after the fact, that he is continuing to be a bully. By Martin's account - and the league report - Martin was not the only victim. And Martin's actions in "cozying up" were an attempt to lessen the harassment.

 

Here's where I think we see it differently. You see some texts with some banter and say, "oh, that's banter - no harm." But I'm looking past that. You don't think Martin knew the difference between the banter and the real stuff? The stuff said in person, over the phone or simply done to him? The stuff that wasn't just banter but was actual harassment? I think he knew where to draw the line.

 

And I still think the bi-polar issue is a sidenote. I don't know anything about Incognito's situation. I also don't know enough about Bipolar disorder. The one thing I do know is that it can be at least mitigated in part by medication. And further that you can't blame being an asshole every day on bipolar disorder.

[papasmurfbell]

Bi-polar is what manic depressive used to be called. One min happy as a pig in S and the next really unhappy. The situation where Icognito beat the crap out of Martin at the club and 15 mins later was like it never happened could be just that.

[thesteelhurtin]

And like it's been said, this is exactly the kind of "mentality" that makes an employer liable.

 

Let's really play this out once more...

 

If he stands up and say "I don't like this." Do you think it gets better or worse for him? According to you and others, my best guess is that everyone's response is "you don't fit in here" or "toughen up, pansy." In which case, saying something - anything - makes a bigger problem.

 

Anyway, let's say after being told that he should just get used to it, he responds like this:

 

 

I can see that working out well too. The rookie saying such things to the clique of lineman who are "like a pack of dogs." More likely I imagine a bigger problem long-term. I also imagine a fight breaking out at some point. Both positive options.

 

But let's just play this one step further. A fight breaks out. Well, that leads to some suspensions and perhaps some investigation, right? If Martin is suspended or in any way given a hard time, you know he's going to "go upstairs" and say "here's what was going on" - in which case, well, here we are. If Incognito is suspended, we wind up with a big question about, well, "what got him suspended" and then I bet his buddy Pouncey comes out and says, "Nothing wrong with Richie, it was all Jon." And that... well, that again starts to look like where we are now. Doesn't it?

 

So you can see why Spen, myself and thousands of others might say, "Hmmm - doesn't seem like there's a way out of this for Martin." And why, legally, the team/league are at fault. And every time someone says, "Just deal with it," that makes the point even more.

he wasn't a rookie first off. He didn't say anything to them. Let's say you you and a friend pick back and forth and you think he isn't saying anything and is joining in so it must be OK and he must being having fun. Well this goes on for sometime with him never saying anything and continually engaging in it with but then one day out of nowhere you get a harassment suit filed against you by him that wouldn't make you scratch your head a little bit. My main points on this is a locker room he has been in them his whole life and knows how they operate, he never said a word about it to the players, and he continually engaged with the in the shit talking and partying and so on. How in the world were they to know it bothered him? If he didn't like it say something and don't join in.

[dc.]

Papa - from what I know of bipolar, that's not how the "states" work. It is not minute to minute. It is week to week or year to year.

[papasmurfbell]

OK. Psychology and brain chemistry are not my thing. Maybe there is something else entirely were you swing from moment to moment. Or it could be really bad impulse control.

[tsylvester]

Papa - from what I know of bipolar, that's not how the "states" work. It is not minute to minute. It is week to week or year to year.

 

 

can be day to day. most times after a "melt down" the person spends the next day or two in bed from sheer exhaustion. Medication works to some extent, but the disease gets them to think; hey i don't need the meds any longer so they skip a day. Then, when you skip a day these mediactions carry a huge rebound affect, making the person far worse.

 

And Papa, no, bipolar has always been bipolar, it is usually accompanied with manic depression. One can have both or either, but they are two different medical conditions.

 

Yes, for the record, I know very well, this condition. My late wife suffered with it for years.

 

DC, again, look past the texts, that is not just what I am basing my opinio on. These players thought what they were saying was fine, acceptable. Then Martin came into the picture, joined the team and for what, two years he went along with them, never telling them he thought it was wrong or bothered him.

 

If they always thought it fine and no one ever told them differently, how is it soley their fault? If you do something for years thinking it is right and no one ever tells you it is wrong, is it your fault when some one new comes in and gets "hurt"?

[thesteelhurtin]

 

 

can be day to day. most times after a "melt down" the person spends the next day or two in bed from sheer exhaustion. Medication works to some extent, but the disease gets them to think; hey i don't need the meds any longer so they skip a day. Then, when you skip a day these mediactions carry a huge rebound affect, making the person far worse.

 

And Papa, no, bipolar has always been bipolar, it is usually accompanied with manic depression. One can have both or either, but they are two different medical conditions.

 

Yes, for the record, I know very well, this condition. My late wife suffered with it for years.

 

DC, again, look past the texts, that is not just what I am basing my opinio on. These players thought what they were saying was fine, acceptable. Then Martin came into the picture, joined the team and for what, two years he went along with them, never telling them he thought it was wrong or bothered him.

 

If they always thought it fine and no one ever told them differently, how is it soley their fault? If you do something for years thinking it is right and no one ever tells you it is wrong, is it your fault when some one new comes in and gets "hurt"?

especially when the new guy is joining in on it

[tsylvester]

especially when the new guy is joining in on it

 

 

 

exactly. if anyone is to blame it is the trainer & or lowerling coach who failed to report their troubles with the treatment they received and of that Martin told them about.....

[Spen]

This stuff drives me crazy, anyone see that woman on the TV claiming that she has been raped? What? First of all she is pretty, so right there its kind of her fault. Second, if she didnt want to have sex why would she have played along and invited him inside for coffee? Surely she has seen Seinfeld and knows what coffee means! I bet she was wearing a short dress or something too. This is all a sham! I bet her and her parents concocted this story so she could get a big payday because shes getting older and wont be able to play the field like she used to.

[thesteelhurtin]

This stuff drives me crazy, anyone see that woman on the TV claiming that she has been raped? What? First of all she is pretty, so right there its kind of her fault. Second, if she didnt want to have sex why would she have played along and invited him inside for coffee? Surely she has seen Seinfeld and knows what coffee means! I bet she was wearing a short dress or something too. This is all a sham! I bet her and her parents concocted this story so she could get a big payday because shes getting older and wont be able to play the field like she used to.

Totally different inviting someone in for coffee is not what Martin was doing. What Martin did would be like her going down on you on her own and then saying she didn't want but didn't say anything.

[tsylvester]

This stuff drives me crazy, anyone see that woman on the TV claiming that she has been raped? What? First of all she is pretty, so right there its kind of her fault. Second, if she didnt want to have sex why would she have played along and invited him inside for coffee? Surely she has seen Seinfeld and knows what coffee means! I bet she was wearing a short dress or something too. This is all a sham! I bet her and her parents concocted this story so she could get a big payday because shes getting older and wont be able to play the field like she used to.

 

 

 

Spen, no, it would be like the man raping her, then the woman not reporting it, and every women he rapes never reports it, so the man thinks rape is fine. That would more closely resemble this situation

[Spen]

Thanks guys, I will work on an updated post at lunch.

[ravinmaniac52]

Looks more and more that all this was as many said, blow way out. He still has to jump some hoops but he will be playing this coming season.

 

Still want to know why the other 2 players walk away like nothing?