Questions, Concerns and Doubts about Lamar

[vmax]

"Can Ravens Defeat Elite Teams with Lamar?"

Add to this "Can Ravens win playoff games and a Super Bowl with Lamar?"

"Will he ever develop as a passer and correctly read defenses?"

Any other questions or doubts about him.

OK....now, let's destroy each other........

Seriously, we're fans and all opinions matter. I'm interested in yours.

For me? I've got his back. "Big Truss." Love what he brings. "Thanks max"

[GrubberRaven]

I'm concerned that I haven't seen him take a step forward.  That's my concern.

We also lost Yanda/Hurst and I think that is affecting him.  I guess they though Ricard would take Hurst's role and he has not?

[varaven45]

I think its all between the ears for Lamar.  

Maybe Lamar gets a brain transfusion with Brady, Rodgers or Brees.

LamarBrady ?   

[GrubberRaven]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">&quot;The league has not caught up to Lamar Jackson. ... I think the league has caught up to Greg Roman — his scheme, his passing game. The Ravens have no identity in the passing game. Lamar has to clean up the turnovers but Roman has to develop an identity.&quot; — <a href="https://twitter.com/BMarshall?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@BMarshall</a> <a href="https://t.co/Z0MRjCy3hF">pic.twitter.com/Z0MRjCy3hF</a></p>&mdash; First Things First (@FTFonFS1) <a href="https://twitter.com/FTFonFS1/status/1323290444952981510?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 2, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[tsylvester]

There is no way for us to know for certain, let's start with that statement, shall we?!

Afterall, we cannot know the play design, the order of options, nor even what his keys are...

Now with that said, to this fan's eye what I see, especially when looking at the all 22...

As I said in the other thread, it appears that either he does not know how to properly read a defense, but this I mean, look and see not just if it is man or zone, but what type of zone? Which side of the formation is zone or man, but also, what is his best option knowing the coverage, routes, match ups.

Against the Steelere, when they went man, they used a linebacker to cover Snead when he was in the slot. This left him open often.

When they went man, the left a single high safety, meaning either side of the field would be one on one on deep routes, a look or pump fake would move the safety away.

So is Lamar just looking for Andrews over  the middle, or who ever down the seam? Is he seeing the coverage and just ignoring it? 

He rarely throws timing patterns, when was the last time we saw a deep out or a comeback route? Timing is vital in man coverage, even against match up zone. If he can't read or make those types of throws, it limits the types of routes, which makes it easier for defensesnto defend against the pass.

On the endzone throw to Snead to end the game, Lamar either didn't read the coverage right, or ignored it and wanted to force the ball to Snead.

He had two better options based on alignment, Brown from the right side on a skinny post, DB was shading his outside. Or Boykin who had single coverage on the left, DB shadimg his outside. The Steelers were forcing all the coverage to the middle, which left plenty of room for either throw, but none to either Snead nor Andrews.

The play was there to win the game if Lamar made the right read, then threw a good timing pass to either Boykin or Brown...

This may speak volumes to where he is as a qb right now, and why "no one is getting open".

But again, we are just fans, don't know his progressions, the plays..

[vmax]

  "What do you think Mike?"

"I'm glad you asked...

Quote

The Ravens built this offense around Jackson, and for better or worse, they are stuck with it. That’s not to say they want to run and abandon it. When the quarterback struggles, it hurts the offense, but Jackson’s situation is unique.

Without Jackson, the Ravens have no running game, especially on the perimeter. The passing game is limited because Jackson struggles to complete throws outside the numbers, which is why the Ravens don’t attempt deep comeback routes or sideline patterns. Shoot, they don’t even throw short hitches, which require passes to be high, tight and to the outside of the field.

Right now, the Ravens have an erratic quarterback and offense. Last season, opponents feared Jackson’s big-play ability and the Ravens’ dominant running game. Jackson still makes teams nervous, but some of the fear has disappeared.....

The Ravens need to clean up Jackson’s mechanics. They can’t hide the problems anymore. He has to get rid of those sidearms attempts and start stepping into his passes again to get more velocity on his throws. He has to become more of a threat as a passer when he gets out of the pocket. Kansas City Chiefs quarterback Patrick Mahomes runs to buy more time to throw. Jackson just runs to pick up yards.

At this time, Jackson’s decision-making is slow. He holds on to the ball too long and just chucks it up when he is about to be sacked. And we’re not talking about just throwing it away; he lofts it like the football has been filled with helium.

Then there is the issue of ball security. Just tuck the ball and put it away.......

Those problems can be fixed, but Jackson and the Ravens have to go back to the fundamentals.

Still, there is one area of Jackson’s game that is a major concern, and maybe I’m wrong, but he doesn’t seem to handle pressure well.

When the Ravens are winning, and the offense is clicking, Jackson is outstanding. But when this team falls behind, and the Ravens need Jackson’s arm to carry them, he struggles. That can change if he leads some big comebacks, especially in the postseason.

Until then, the silver lining is that the Ravens still almost won Sunday............https://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/analysis/preston/bs-pr-sp-lamar-jackson-fundamentals-preston-20201102-sopl5dilaneynlfxrntfvsp4uu-story.html

 

[vmax]

Good post tsylvester... All of it. Very informative.

Quote

On the endzone throw to Snead to end the game, Lamar either didn't read the coverage right, or ignored it and wanted to force the ball to Snead.

He had two better options based on alignment, Brown from the right side on a skinny post, DB was shading his outside. Or Boykin who had single coverage on the left, DB shadimg his outside. The Steelers were forcing all the coverage to the middle, which left plenty of room for either throw, but none to either Snead nor Andrews.

The play was there to win the game if Lamar made the right read, then threw a good timing pass to either Boykin or Brown...

I've been thinking about that play. I was thinking, "One day Lamar makes this throw and we're all....

 

[oldno82]

I don't want to jump too hard on Lamar but, and a big but, he's either not the same Lamar as last year's edition or defenses have figured him out. I think it's the latter. Basically, if you can prevent him from running and force him to throw you contain him and he just doesn't have the skill set yet, or maybe ever (gulp!), to compensate.

I have to agree with Tsyl  too. He's not making the proper reads. He's also under a lot more pressure from good teams when throwing and he's not adapting. He isn't making the killer plays to stymie the pass rush. He looks to run himself too much and it's hurting him.

I think these things are correctable but Greg Roman has a part to play here too as well as the QB coach. 

Bottom line: the best teams have adapted and the Ravens and Lamar haven't. And I'm not sure they can as they are built and coached now.

[papasmurfbell]

I see it as very similar to Vick.  Hegoes nuts and nobody can stop hom.  After a yr off DCs watch the tape and see where he is limited and it all disappears.  Lamar has to be able to work outside the numbers.  Teams are selling out to tighten the middle of the field.  

[oldno82]

Maybe that's why Hollywood is getting disgruntled? Cause he's open down the sidelines often?

BTW, kudos to Willie Snead. I said put Duvernay in the slot and I still stand by that but Snead had a good game Sunday.

[papasmurfbell]

No doubt Snead played well.  But I also would make a change.

[tsylvester]

On the 4th & 3, at the goal line when Lamar gets stuffed on a qb keeper. I don't know if that was the call, but he had Andrews & Brown open on the right side, Brown to the corner, Andrews to the seam. Snead was covered by a linebacker and not likely to get the first down. But either pass to Brown or a tougher pass to Andrews which they have done before, is 6 pts.

Again, maybe it was a qb keeper all of the way, if so if he just kept going to the right and put the jets on he gets the first down....

[Spen]

Seven weeks removed from a unanimous MVP season and there's a ton of bitching. 

I know some of the people here predicted failure so you're backed into that corner, wait for it and pick apart every mistake.

Constantly predicting failure does not make you look smart or objective - just makes you look like a negative asshole. 

@varaven45 - the brain transplant/ between the ears stuff is really offensive. 

We would all like constant improvement, actually I'm not sure that is true for some of us here,  and maybe it seems logical that improvement would be consistent- but so many good/very good/ great QBs have had years or periods in their development where they struggled. It happens. 

And its not like this offense is so talented the problem has to be Lamar.

Times like this I'm not surprised Baltimore fans have whiney reputation we do.

 

[papasmurfbell]

When I read your stuff I get why so many ppl think bmore fans are stupid.

[Spen]

2 hours ago, papasmurfbell said:

When I read your stuff I get why so many ppl think bmore fans are stupid.

At least I don't spend years hanging around a message board of a team I don't like.

Or say winning the super bowl was the worst thing that could happen to this team. 

Or self congratulating myself constantly in the vain attempt to get someone else to do it for you.  

Etc etc.....

[papasmurfbell]

God you have the memory of a goldfish.  Is Ozzie gone?  

At least  I dont sit around giving myself a self abrasion in a constant attempt to talk shit on someone in a vain attempt to show I have an ounce of knowledge.

[varaven45]

 I m still of the rational and mindset that Lamar might not be the long term QB.    

Does he have the potential to correct his throwing mechanics ? Can we fix our OL and GRoman's  questionable playcalling?

How about Lamar's decisionmaking and view of the field; can he correct and improve ?  How about more weapons at WR  like some of the studs 

the Steelers; can we secure one of these one day ? 

 

I think the answer is yes to all and Lamar will be given the opportunity to correct and improve.   In my humble opinion, after watching the NFL 

including for the past 50 years + (including the Johnny U and Bert Jones days), watching the current QBs - Burrow, etc,, and the next crop -

including the Trevor Lawrence types, I have my doubts that Lamar has the pedigree to lead this team to victories in the playoffs and win a SB.

 

I hope Im flat out wrong and Lamar gets it together - just cant see or envision it.    We'll see where this all goes and hopefully im dead wrong. 

 

My two cents .....

  

 

 

[vmax]

You can call this an excuse for Lamar yet when I look around the league at the new, younger generation of QB's ...Lock, Darnold, Jones, Haskins, Mayfield, Murray, Jackson, Minshew....they all are struggling a little bit and performing inconsistently.

I think not having OTA's, access to their facility's and a real training camp has stunted their development some.

In Lamar's case, he really needed heavy coaching on his mechanics and quality time throwing to his receivers...time to develop the whole route tree. I think this is why Proche isn't playing on offense yet and Duverney is just getting started. That's 2 big playmakers with awesome speed and good hands....and the Ravens having been able to open that present due to the virus.

This is one reason/excuse why the Ravens O has not been able to get better to counter opposing defenses.

The passing game...the passing game...it makes me sick seeing teams load the box and Lamar not being able to make them pay. It's a dream scenario. Even Dilfer   was able to make 2-3 big plays every game because defenses crowded the box to try and stop Jamal.

[papasmurfbell]

Other than Murray I will agree the young guys arent doing great.  But I never expected much from any of them other than Mayfield who is shooting himslef in the foot.  To many times QBs are artificially pushed up to be drafted to early.  

[varaven45]

Well said Max !    Yep, even Trent was able to get the monkey off his back. 

 Boy, wouldnt you love to have a 2020 version of Jamal?  Still remember his 295 yd game against the Browns (and we were there !)

Would love to have that "hammer" again. 

[papasmurfbell]

The arguments I have read for Lamar remind me of cle fans after that game Jamal ripped them a new one.  Take away the 2 runs and Jamal and Jamal only had 150 yds and over 5 ypc.  Now I see if they take away Lamars turnovers he had a pretty decent game.

[varaven45]

Yeah, its all how you look at it.   Jamal was actually a cheap OL holding penalty away from a beautiful 60-65 yard run

which would have given him 360+ yards.    It was a huge game and yes many long runs but whatever. 

Monster game from the "hammer".   The dude flat out could take over a game.     

 

  

[vmax]

Here's a gloomy theory..............

Quote

Almost a decade before taking over the Baltimore Ravens' offense in 2019, Greg Roman was developing Colin Kaepernick -- then a raw but extremely athletic passer -- with the San Francisco 49ers in his first stint as an NFL offensive coordinator. Halfway through his second season, Kaepernick replaced Alex Smith as the team's QB1 and dazzled with his extraordinary dual-threat ability, shredding defenses in a system that featured run-pass options and designed runs.

Sound familiar?

Roman has done similar work with Jackson in Baltimore over the last couple years by utilizing the QB's video-game-like rushing ability to make him one of the most dangerous weapons in the game despite his limitations as a passer. Both Kaepernick and Jackson took the league by storm under Roman, with Kaepernick helping lead the 49ers to an NFC title in his second season and Jackson winning the MVP award in Year 2.

However, after nearly winning a championship, the 49ers started to alter their offense and turned Kaepernick into more of a dropback passer as a means of protecting him from big hits. With a guy as dynamic as Kap, I understand why a franchise would want to shield him from wear and tear, but by limiting him from fully utilizing his greatest asset, a decline in production seemed likely to follow. Sure enough, Kaepernick's passer rating and average yards per pass attempt decreased in each of the two seasons that followed his peak 2012 campaign. Roman left San Francisco after the 2014 season and Kaepernick lost the starting job a couple years later. 

A look at Jackson's production in 2020 has me wondering if the Ravens are falling into the same trap. It sure feels that way....https://www.nfl.com/news/offensive-player-rankings-week-9-what-s-behind-lamar-jackson-s-struggles

 

[oldno82]

Well,  it may be gloomy but it has a lot of logic in it. I do think Lamar has the potential to be a very good pocket passer but the lack of practice time this past spring and summer left him detached from his better coaching. He has to remember his own mantra: 'he's a quarterback not a running back.'

[papasmurfbell]

2 hours ago, varaven45 said:

Yeah, its all how you look at it.   Jamal was actually a cheap OL holding penalty away from a beautiful 60-65 yard run

which would have given him 360+ yards.    It was a huge game and yes many long runs but whatever. 

Monster game from the "hammer".   The dude flat out could take over a game.     

 

  

I still think he is a hof talent.  The rb position has changed and you can't look for the emmit Smith types anymore.