'Our hearts are broken today'

[vmax]

The only thing I think we can do is try to be better persons ourselves. To some degree we can make progress and control that.

Other people we can't control. We can see those around us who are troubled and need help and see if we can make a difference.

 

This kid, who was the shooter, fell through the cracks. Nobody picked up on what was going on inside him.

There's 587 issues that you go through as a kid, teenager and young adult. Maybe kids need more than an education in school. Maybe too many parents aren't parenting or helping their kids through challenging times. Maybe we need to test and identify kids who need a loving helping hand through whatever it is that they are going through. Then get them that help outside of school.

 

Can you imagine being the parent of one of those little childern who were killed right now?

The pain is mind blowing.

[BengalBilly]

The only thing I think we can do is try to be better persons ourselves. To some degree we can make progress and control that.

Other people we can't control. We can see those around us who are troubled and need help and see if we can make a difference.

 

This kid, who was the shooter, fell through the cracks. Nobody picked up on what was going on inside him.

There's 587 issues that you go through as a kid, teenager and young adult. Maybe kids need more than an education in school. Maybe too many parents aren't parenting or helping their kids through challenging times. Maybe we need to test and identify kids who need a loving helping hand through whatever it is that they are going through. Then get them that help outside of school.

 

Can you imagine being the parent of one of those little childern who were killed right now?

The pain is mind blowing.

A very concise comment totally devoid of knee jerking.

[OutsideRzAcE]

Gun control laws lead to gun bans dumbass. It's like telling the Jews back in Nazi Germany "Oh, get on the train. We're only taking you to summer camp." Next thing you know everyone is wondering why it's getting so hot in the room.

 

I won't give an inch.

 

I see, just like how the Assault weapons ban enacted by Clinton lead to a gun ban...except...where..it didn't. Gun control laws lead to gun control. You are over-thinking it because you are a paranoid old man. You said it yourself there will always be phsyco's out there who will find a way to kill. Why make it easy for them? I'll say it again, Aurora colorado, the guy bought 4 guns in including a AR15 assault rifle all LEGALLY. Why should we allow it to be that easy for people with a history of mental instability to get their hands on guns? Because in your mind stopping it might eventually lead to a full gun ban? That is a stupid reason to continue to allow dangerous weapons to be so accessible to everyone. Continue to think this way and blood will be on your hands and people with the thought process as deranged as yours.

[BengalBilly]

 

I see, just like how the Assault weapons ban enacted by Clinton lead to a gun ban...except...where..it didn't. Gun control laws lead to gun control. You are over-thinking it because you are a paranoid old man. You said it yourself there will always be phsyco's out there who will find a way to kill. Why make it easy for them? I'll say it again, Aurora colorado, the guy bought 4 guns in including a AR15 assault rifle all LEGALLY. Why should we allow it to be that easy for people with a history of mental instability to get their hands on guns? Because in your mind stopping it might eventually lead to a full gun ban? That is a stupid reason to continue to allow dangerous weapons to be so accessible to everyone. Continue to think this way and blood will be on your hands and people with the thought process as deranged as yours.

Blood on my hands? Bravo! Your ignorance just won you an Academy Award in drama. Now put on your dress and take your bows on stage. BTW your knee is jerking like a motherfucker.

[OutsideRzAcE]

The only thing I think we can do is try to be better persons ourselves. To some degree we can make progress and control that.

Other people we can't control. We can see those around us who are troubled and need help and see if we can make a difference.

 

This kid, who was the shooter, fell through the cracks. Nobody picked up on what was going on inside him.

There's 587 issues that you go through as a kid, teenager and young adult. Maybe kids need more than an education in school. Maybe too many parents aren't parenting or helping their kids through challenging times. Maybe we need to test and identify kids who need a loving helping hand through whatever it is that they are going through. Then get them that help outside of school.

 

Can you imagine being the parent of one of those little children who were killed right now?

The pain is mind blowing.

 

If it were me my life would be over. I could not physically function if my kids were taken away from me like that. Kids are the most innocent of the innocent and that is why I am sure this will bring about some change on both the weapons front and on the mental health front.

[BengalBilly]

 

If it were me my life would be over. I could not physically function if my kids were taken away from me like that. Kids are the most innocent of the innocent and that is why I am sure this will bring about some change on both the weapons front and on the mental health front.

I will support you on the mental health end.

[OutsideRzAcE]

Blood on my hands? Bravo! Your ignorance just won you an Academy Award in drama. Now put on your dress and take your bows on stage. BTW your knee is jerking like a motherfucker.

 

Great retort Billy. Like I said you can't argue the points so if this is going to devolve into an insult fest then I have better things to do then argue with a man twice my age who behaves like one half my age.

[BengalBilly]

 

Great retort Billy. Like I said you can't argue the points so if this is going to devolve into an insult fest then I have better things to do then argue with a man twice my age who behaves like one half my age.

I gave you points, and you stepped around them. Acted like they weren't even there. Then you threw up ludicrious comments how I, a law abiding citizen, would somehow have blood on my hands because of my stance on gun control.

 

You've got issues.

[papasmurfbell]

 

A banning of firearms would be knee jerk. Correct backgrounds would be a great call.

[papasmurfbell]

http://news.yahoo.com/no-rise-mass-killings-impact-huge-185700637.html

 

 

"There is no pattern, there is no increase," says criminologist James Allen Fox of Boston's Northeastern University, who has been studying the subject since the 1980s, spurred by a rash of mass shootings in post offices.

The random mass shootings that get the most media attention are the rarest, Fox says. Most people who die of bullet wounds knew the identity of their killer.

Society moves on, he says, because of our ability to distance ourselves from the horror of the day, and because people believe that these tragedies are "one of the unfortunate prices we pay for our freedoms."

Grant Duwe, a criminologist with the Minnesota Department of Corrections who has written a history of mass murders in America, said that while mass shootings rose between the 1960s and the 1990s, they actually dropped in the 2000s. And mass killings actually reached their peak in 1929, according to his data. He estimates that there were 32 in the 1980s, 42 in the 1990s and 26 in the first decade of the century.

Chances of being killed in a mass shooting, he says, are probably no greater than being struck by lightning.

[Spen]

I'd say its pretty knee jerk when one person mentions 'tougher gun control laws' and its assumed right away that means guns will be taken away (which will be met with bullets lmao). This leads to insults and comparisons to Nazi Germany.

 

Let me try something:

 

"well regulated". Did that show up? So its not invisible? As far as I know the 2nd amendment contains those two words in it. For some reason a lot of people never see that. So therefore I don't think its necessarily an infringement on anyone's rights to discuss or propose stricter gun control laws. I certainly understand questioning how easy it is to obtain guns and whether or not citizens should be able to own assault rifles. These are certainly fair questions to ask, and I don't fault anyone for asking them.

 

I believe in the second amendment, some people here wont think so because I do not think it means citizens can own any type of gun they want - and I would not be against tougher steps involved before being allowed to own a gun, but I do consider myself pro 2nd amendment.

 

The closest I ever come to wavering on my support of that amendment is when I listen to the pro gun supporters on forums like these. Most (not all) simply cannot carry on a reasonable discussion. They always argue it to the absurd (ie the tobacco example) or become irrational ("there (incorrectly spelled usually) not taking my guns") and /or then insulting. After a while when I see the type of people arguing with me, and seemingly a majority are like this, I start to wonder if I made a huge mistake.

[papasmurfbell]

I see people saying to take all guns away very loudly.

 

It also "...shall not be infringed."

[Spen]

I know what it says, so whats your point toldyousosmurf? Surely you are not claiming that the "shall not be infringed" part negates any or all of the parts that came before it?

 

And maybe you have seen and heard people advocating banning all guns, I have not in my discussions both online and off in the past few days. What prompted and preceded "Come to my home and try to take my guns. You'll get the bullets first"? Spoiler alert, it wasn't a post advocating removing all guns.

[deeshopper]

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

 

You earn this right by picking up a bow and arrow, killing a bear, and taking its arms for you do with them what you wish. At no time does the word 'gun' appear. Am I missing something?

[BengalBilly]

 

You earn this right by picking up a bow and arrow, killing a bear, and taking its arms for you do with them what you wish. At no time does the word 'gun' appear. Am I missing something?

Not funny Dee. This is a man thing so will you please step aside.

[BengalBilly]

I'd say its pretty knee jerk when one person mentions 'tougher gun control laws' and its assumed right away that means guns will be taken away (which will be met with bullets lmao). This leads to insults and comparisons to Nazi Germany.

 

Let me try something:

 

"well regulated". Did that show up? So its not invisible? As far as I know the 2nd amendment contains those two words in it. For some reason a lot of people never see that. So therefore I don't think its necessarily an infringement on anyone's rights to discuss or propose stricter gun control laws. I certainly understand questioning how easy it is to obtain guns and whether or not citizens should be able to own assault rifles. These are certainly fair questions to ask, and I don't fault anyone for asking them.

 

I believe in the second amendment, some people here wont think so because I do not think it means citizens can own any type of gun they want - and I would not be against tougher steps involved before being allowed to own a gun, but I do consider myself pro 2nd amendment.

 

The closest I ever come to wavering on my support of that amendment is when I listen to the pro gun supporters on forums like these. Most (not all) simply cannot carry on a reasonable discussion. They always argue it to the absurd (ie the tobacco example) or become irrational ("there (incorrectly spelled usually) not taking my guns") and /or then insulting. After a while when I see the type of people arguing with me, and seemingly a majority are like this, I start to wonder if I made a huge mistake.

You need to try something else. You failed here.

 

Yes a horrible crime was committed on Friday. The weak of mind immediately run to blame the instrument that was used rather than the person that wielded it. You're missing the point. As long as deranged assholes like this exist, they will kill people. Jim Jones did it with spiked Kool Aide. Over 900 people died. I'm waiting for the tears to be shed over this. Of course I won't see them here. It's all pick and choose.

 

You boys are a piece of work

[deeshopper]

Way to be an asshole, Billy. And a chauvinist. But mostly an asshole. Stay classy.

[GrubberRaven]

Kid was a loner. Killed mother ('how' has not been reported), who was a gun enthusiast and took her weapons. No amount of screening would have stopped him as he took guns that were not his.

 

I don't understand what you need to protect your family from Billy. This is not an attack at you, just q statement. Are we at war here in the states? Are you living where people attack random people? I grew up with hunting bows and rifles in my home. Rifles are second nature to me. I do not understand the point of owning anything beyond a hunting rifle, however, but that's just me. I will never be able to make sense of this, nor will anybody. How many of these stories have ended with some gun owner saving the day?

 

All that's been on my mind since this happened is cherishing life and thinking how I can be a better, more aware person. I have two young children and looking at them and imagining what has happened to all of the families in CT has been humbling and sobering.

[Spen]

Thanks Billy. If someone like you dislikes my post I feel like it was a successful one. If someone else responded to my post and referenced Jim Jones I'd think they were making a joke. Not you, continue to argue the absurd and think you are saying something logical. Seriously guys, why don't we shed tears about a cult suicide that happened 35 years ago? Its exactly like what happened yesterday and just as timely.

 

Maybe you meant to quote someone elses post. Somehow you inferred I blamed the weapon not the person. I don't see how you got that from my post. Just because I am not dead set against some stronger gun control laws I guess makes you assume that about me. Funny.

[OutsideRzAcE]

You need to try something else. You failed here.

 

Yes a horrible crime was committed on Friday. The weak of mind immediately run to blame the instrument that was used rather than the person that wielded it. You're missing the point. As long as deranged assholes like this exist, they will kill people. Jim Jones did it with spiked Kool Aide. Over 900 people died. I'm waiting for the tears to be shed over this. Of course I won't see them here. It's all pick and choose.

 

You boys are a piece of work

 

Yes Billy, we're a piece of work. Today after you were finally done with your tantrums, you admitted that you oppose something, not because you oppose it, but because it could ultimately lead to something you oppose. Let that marinate for a minute. Today any unstable nutjob can go to a gun show, lay down cash, and buy any number and types of guns without a background check. What you have said is that you are ok with something like this, not because you think it's a good thing that any nutjob can go to a gun show and buy guns without a background check, but because if we create common sense legislation that stops something like this, it brings us closer to a gun ban that we were before. This is backward and selfish thinking, and yet you want to call someone else a piece of work.

 

Also great move telling the site owner that she shouldn't participate in a conversation on her own site because of her gender. You are just on a roll today.

[OutsideRzAcE]

Kid was a loner. Killed mother ('how' has not been reported), who was a gun enthusiast and took her weapons. No amount of screening would have stopped him as he took guns that were not his.

 

I understand this. I have also heard that the semi was in the car and therefore was not a factor. I understand that there will always be psychos and killers out there. But I am not looking at this tragedy in a vacuum, but rather as a disturbing trend of major gun violence in recent years and I will not accept that we cannot do anything to limit the access and make it tougher for people who have no business having their hands on a weapon, especially the most deadly weapons. The murderer in this case is dead so there is not case to solve, but authorities are still spending time not only combing through his history, but the history of every gun in his possession and they are doing it for good reason. Because we need to learn why this happened, how this happened, and how to minimize the chance of it happening again.

[dc.]

Man, this one was something to read...

 

Billy, I think if you re-read this thread, you might find a few over-reactions on your part. I think the biggest over-reaction is simply this: is it knee-jerk to start a conversation about the availability of deadly weapons (of any kind) when a large-scale, deadly attack takes place? Perhaps it is knee-jerk. But I don't think it's necessarily inappropriate or invalid.

 

I am 100% willing to listen to each and every argument - so long as it is presented with some level of respect. But we should absolutely be having this discussion.

 

 

I will make two additional points and then bow out - this time getting more to my personal beliefs.

 

First, I love our constitution as much as anyone - but it is far from perfect. That includes the Bill of Rights and all amendments (perhaps like the one we repealed?). As great as our constitution is, the fact that some idea or some text appears in it does not in fact make that idea or text holy, infallible or even correct. I study a lot of political philosophy - as those on here who know me personally can verify - and so far as I find, the right to a gun really appears only in the US Constitution ,and in no other constitution or political treatise on the rights of man that I have ever read. Our entire constitution was based on the ideas of men like Locke, Montesquieu, Jefferson, etc. And yet we, as a society, hold this right as overwhelmingly inherent because it shows up in this constitution, if not in any other major works; and all things from the years 1776-1791 must be so perfect. It is a strange argument to me. We've abandoned much from that time - frequently with great discussion - but we have still abandoned. Further, the Second Amendment itself is incredibly frustrating - it's grammar and language are vague if not plain obtuse. I certainly acknowledge that the founders wanted men to be able to own guns - largely of course because of their relationship with tyrannical governments - but we have little understanding of just what "regulation" was necessary in their view. Ultimately, it's also necessary to say that context matters. As a tangent, I frequently smile when people talk about what they think people like Jefferson would think of "government takeovers of health care." I find it funny because even the idea of health insurance didn't exist in such a time. In fact, "health care" didn't exist in such a time. Medicine hardly existed, at least not anything we would call medicine. I often wonder that if we love these words "unalienable rights, among them life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness," if Jefferson wouldn't think that medicine and health care, when they existed, would be free. So from this, I simply think it's rather hard to fathom what these men might have thought about our world and our means of life - including guns and weapons as they presently exist. The constitution is amendable in large part because of Jefferson's belief that no generation should decide for another under what rules they live. It is the basis of our system. So let's change what needs to be changed - if it needs to be changed.

 

In all that - to summarize - I do not mean to conclude that the 2nd Amendment doesn't matter. But rather, rejecting any discussion of gun control under the guise of the infallibility of our constitution and the intent of our framers is invalid. The discussion is fair to be had.

 

As my second point, I hypothesize only this - and I have yet to find any conclusive studies or data, so I hypothesize: Based on all that I have read, it seems quite clear that the guns that exist in this country and that are used in this country are, by a wide majority, originally acquired by legal means. Certainly, the criminals that use guns in acts of murder, robbery, etc obtain their arms through illegal means - but the guns find their way to market legally. Whether criminals buy them secondhand, borrow them or steal them, they most frequently start from legal purchases and production. When people argue that "gun control only keeps guns out of the hands of well-meaning citizens/victims" - I cannot disagree. But we cannot end the statement there. If my original hypothesis is correct: keeping guns out of the hands of most people will, in turn, keep guns out of the hands of criminals. As much as we may like the Hollywood script that shows large amounts of firepower accumulated by criminal syndicates, streaming weapons across our borders; that notion is a fallacy. The guns in this country don't arrive here through secret channels - that is in fact probably one of the hardest ways to get a gun. The guns are here already. The question is about distribution of a product that already exists. If the product did not exist on the market in its first phase, it would not exist in the market in its second phase.

 

And so again, I cringe when people tell us that we can't even have this conversation. There's just too much conversation to be had. Because, despite the fact that I know it frustrates you Billy, I think you know the answer to this question: Would those 20 children and 8 adults be dead today in CT if that man didn't have a gun (or several)? Would the principal, who apparently ran and lunged at the shooter, have been more successful in disarming him if he wasn't carrying a gun but a different weapon?

[cravnravn]

 

A banning of firearms would be knee jerk. Correct backgrounds would be a great call.

 

We dont fucking need Republican adds in this topic..

[cravnravn]

The mother had 4 guns registered to her, 1 not involved in the shootings that is what Special Forces uses in the Military..Why? Even the rifle used in the massacre, its not your everyday hunting rifle, it was the same rifle used by the Beltway snipers a few years back.

 

Where does a 20 year old kid get body armor?

[oldcrow]

Way to be an asshole, Billy. And a chauvinist. But mostly an asshole. Stay classy.

 

a part of me thinks billy was joking but if not

way to keep it civil Dee with this chauvinistic pig.

seems that the female principal and maybe other ladies died going after this dickhead just to protect the kids

where were the men in this school had to be one or two i'm sure? hiding?