cravnravn Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 Not pretty numbers that everone in the media and opposing fans want to see, They turn a blind eye at his w & l record, they turn a blind eye that every year he has been in the league he has one atleast 1 playoff game, 3 AFCCG's, a SB trophy and a SB MVP. The FO needs to protect that investment, Joe Flacco gets hit way too many times, one of these times he is not going to get up. He is doing his very best Johnny U impersonation in physical toughness. This lack of protection, is definitely going to bite us, Joe doesnt see half of his completions because hes buried on the ground.. Just hope this move with McKinney and Osi coming back will bring protection to Joe. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
varaven45 Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 You are right. Its an obvious shortcoming of this team and a lot of NFL teams (see Steelers). You can argue our the FO has whiffed in the draft (sans Yanda). The FA moves-Birk, Monroe (we'll see)-are good. If Monroe doesn't pan out, we need to draft or acquire long term solutions a LT, another G (opposite Yanda), C and RT. We need a sold OL, not just for pass blocking, but for road grading. I cannot tell you how many times over the past 2-3 years I have watched this team unsuccessfully run on a 3rd or 4th and 1, or eschew the run and attempt a pass in the same situation. Its obviously frustrating as a fan, but the reality is this team HAS to be able to effectively run the damn ball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tornado700 Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 Have to agree 100% Crave. Joe was hit pretty good in Miami. We HAVE to protect our main asset much better. In your last post, I think you meant Monroe, not McKinnie. Personally, I think this Oline will get better each week. Joe has to be upright to get that ball downfield. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubberRaven Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 Just a side note too...Looks like Ryan may be losing Julio Jones for the year...want to bet all you'll hear is how Ryan couldn't succeed without Jones, but here is Joe with a different set of WRs every week and is still winning (for the most part ) 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robjr83 Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 Looks like someone doesn't agree with Grubber/Crav...hmmmm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubberRaven Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 Oh that's just the comic styling of the one and only OldSchool...he probably meant to give a -1 thinking it was me and messed up. Ever since he found he was missing one chromosome, he tries to -1 everything he can, so everything can be 'special' like him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldno82 Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 If he's hit enough times Joe will eventually get injured. I hope Monroe plays this week and Osemele gets back to how he played last year. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spen Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 I thought Joe played really well Sunday, better than his numbers may look Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colincac Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 Joe's 'only' making 13 mil this year, with 20+ coming soon, but he took enough money that he shouldn't have to have help around him to succeed. See Brady, end of story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cravnravn Posted October 8, 2013 Author Share Posted October 8, 2013 Not questioneing his style of play last Sunday, Im questioning his durability, he took some shots Sunday Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubberRaven Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 Joe's 'only' making 13 mil this year, with 20+ coming soon, but he took enough money that he shouldn't have to have help around him to succeed. See Brady, end of story. Wrong Colin - he's almost $7mil this year, then $15mil the following two. I was only making the point that everyone likes to blame him for ruining our cap, when the two highest are Suggs and Ngata, but they are playing what they're worth for the most part. So not only will they claim he killed the cap, but also doesn't have the skillset to earn it, while Matt Ryan is making more and is surrounded by talent far and above what Joe has. Joe is still succeeding and well, Ryan is tanking... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RavenMad Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 Joe's 'only' making 13 mil this year, with 20+ coming soon, but he took enough money that he shouldn't have to have help around him to succeed. See Brady, end of story. How many points did Brady put up against the Bengals? It sure looks like he needs some help at receiver to me. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colincac Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 How many points did Brady put up against the Bengals? It sure looks like he needs some help at receiver to me.One game sample size for the win. What a terrible argument. Wrong Colin - he's almost $7mil this year, then $15mil the following two. I was only making the point that everyone likes to blame him for ruining our cap, when the two highest are Suggs and Ngata, but they are playing what they're worth for the most part. So not only will they claim he killed the cap, but also doesn't have the skillset to earn it, while Matt Ryan is making more and is surrounded by talent far and above what Joe has. Joe is still succeeding and well, Ryan is tanking...I apologize for being mistaken on the numbers exactly, but my point still exists. Indeed Joe is not yet killing our cap, but if he can't win with what's around him now, how will he win with even less around him in the coming years? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubberRaven Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 I apologize for being mistaken on the numbers exactly, but my point still exists. Indeed Joe is not yet killing our cap, but if he can't win with what's around him now, how will he win with even less around him in the coming years? Oz will find a way... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colincac Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 Oz will find a way...I have the utmost faith in Oz, but I believe Joe is simply an above-average Quarterback and not worth the money he got. So far, nothing Joe has done has earned his contract except for last years playoffs. I would love to be wrong on this, but the 'arguments' posed against me thus far have been little more than homer rants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubberRaven Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 Rodgers/Ryan/Romo were all paid more than Flacco, and other than Rodgers, have had less post season success. You need a QB that can make your team succeed and take you deep into the playoffs. Joe has done so...he may not have the stats the others have, he's worthy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vmax Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 Colin... The O line is not only getting Joe clobbered but it is not run blocking, so Joe has no threat of a running game. He has little time to throw and only 1 proven pass catcher to throw to. He's not Superman. No QB in Joe's situation would look good. You see that right? We saw what Joe can do in the playoffs with a running game, guys who could catch and an O line who can protect him.....against very good defenses.He's shown what he can do...proven it...when he has a TEAM around him.Joe hasn't changed.The team has. Matt Ryan with all the offensive weapons in the world can't win. Romo can't and Rodgers & the Pack are 2-2. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colincac Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 Colin... The O line is not only getting Joe clobbered but it is not run blocking, so Joe has no threat of a running game. He has little time to throw and only 1 proven pass catcher to throw to. He's not Superman. No QB in Joe's situation would look good. You see that right? We saw what Joe can do in the playoffs with a running game, guys who could catch and an O line who can protect him.....against very good defenses.He's shown what he can do...proven it...when he has a TEAM around him.Joe hasn't changed.The team has. Matt Ryan with all the offensive weapons in the world can't win. Romo can't and Rodgers & the Pack are 2-2.I am the first to say that Joe had an unreal post-season run and some of the other QB's who are paid on his level have not had his post-season success. I also agree that post-season success is more important than regular season numbers. My point, that no one has addressed, is that NOW that Flacco is paid at this level, he won't ever again be surrounded by the same level of talent he previously was. As you yourself say, he needs a team around him. In the end, I don't understand why he was paid like Brady when he can't produce like Brady. I don't blame Joe for taking the money but he didn't deserve what he got. End of story. To be clear, I am not blaming this lackluster season on Joe. The offensive line, running backs, and WR's have all been dismal. But again, going forward Joe will never have superb talent if he chooses to take 20% of our salary cap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldno82 Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 It's not 20% this year or next year or the year after that. His cap figure is 7 mil this year ,15 mil next year and 2015. It's essentially a three year contract that will get renegotiated if we choose to keep him after that. Speaking of which, Ngata will be consuming 16 mil in cap money in 2014 and 2015 and, while he's good, he's not playing up to that level. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cravnravn Posted October 10, 2013 Author Share Posted October 10, 2013 I am the first to say that Joe had an unreal post-season run and some of the other QB's who are paid on his level have not had his post-season success. I also agree that post-season success is more important than regular season numbers. My point, that no one has addressed, is that NOW that Flacco is paid at this level, he won't ever again be surrounded by the same level of talent he previously was. As you yourself say, he needs a team around him. In the end, I don't understand why he was paid like Brady when he can't produce like Brady. I don't blame Joe for taking the money but he didn't deserve what he got. End of story. To be clear, I am not blaming this lackluster season on Joe. The offensive line, running backs, and WR's have all been dismal. But again, going forward Joe will never have superb talent if he chooses to take 20% of our salary cap. EXACTLY the point of this thread, The organization put a ton of money out for Joe and nothing to protect that investment..think about it, Ray Lewis was paid hugely, but look at the supporting cast members he had around him, Ed Reed got paid, T-Sizzle got his, Ngata got his also, but everyone of those guys had each other, and they also had other players the Ellerbees, Scotts etal supporting them. Joe has Ray Rice(who will be released after this season) and Yanda..Thats just not going to cut it 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colincac Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 EXACTLY the point of this thread, The organization put a ton of money out for Joe and nothing to protect that investment..think about it, Ray Lewis was paid hugely, but look at the supporting cast members he had around him, Ed Reed got paid, T-Sizzle got his, Ngata got his also, but everyone of those guys had each other, and they also had other players the Ellerbees, Scotts etal supporting them. Joe has Ray Rice(who will be released after this season) and Yanda..Thats just not going to cut it The basic point you're failing to see is that you have a limited amount of cap space. Making a big investment in Joe actually means that we have less money to support him, not that we should be spending more to 'protect our investment'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Money Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 Joe's 'only' making 13 mil this year, with 20+ coming soon, but he took enough money that he shouldn't have to have help around him to succeed. See Brady, end of story. I don't understand where you are coming from with this. Brady has the best offensive line in the NFL protecting him. Last year he had Welker, Gronkowski and Hernandez as weapons (not too shabby). The Ravens need to strive to always have an elite offensive line (signing Monroe long term will be a nice step). They can no longer sign a RB to a big money extension (they wouldn't have signed Rice had the timing been a little different). They should invest in Torrey Smith and the TE position. There are actually other deals I'm more concerned about. They need to get out from under the Rice and Ngata contracts. I'm also concerned that Ladarius will not be able to play CB for much longer. I love the idea of Webby as our FS (Elam playing SS), but that is a lot of money to pay for a safety. I do think Webb can be the same type of playmaker as Reed though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vmax Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 The Ravens are paying for drafting and developing players well. It's all part of parity. The better you do, the higher the penalty. Outstanding players demand outstanding contracts and outstanding teams draft late and get harder schedules.This is the world that GM's have to navigate when trying to figure out how to field the best team possible and win consistently. So yes...Joe's contract has team cap implications. Same for other players mentioned above. Clayton writes about this today.... But something is off center. Eli Manning, Matt Ryan and Ben Roethlisberger are three of the best quarterbacks in the league. Their combined records are 1-13. Because they are among the highest-paid players in the league, some might point to the cost of keeping them as a problem, but that can't be the case.Drew Brees makes $20 million a year, and Peyton Manning makes $19.2 million a year. Their teams are a combined 10-0.But how teams are structured with high-priced quarterbacks might have to be investigated as the post-mortem is performed on the New York Giants, Pittsburgh Steelers and Atlanta Falcons. Based on the first five weeks, a theme is starting to emerge from these teams.Each team regressed along the offensive lines. The Falcons tried to get younger and cheaper, and that didn't work out. The Steelers have tried to rebuild the line through the draft, but it hasn't worked. Mike Adams, a 2012 second-rounder picked to be the left tackle of the future, was demoted to third string. The Giants have had age issues along the line for years, and the young tackles drafted to help haven't worked out yet.It's also easy to see that the cap impact of having high-priced quarterbacks whittled away the depth of these three teams. The Falcons lost five starters to injury in Week 3, added Julio Jones and Roddy White to the infirmary Monday night and have fallen flat.Defenses may not win championships like the old days, but teams with high-priced quarterbacks can't let their defenses decline to the point where they can't get opposing offenses off the field. That's happened with the Giants and Falcons.http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9795176/some-teams-high-priced-qbs-struggling 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldschool739 Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 Oh that's just the comic styling of the one and only OldSchool...he probably meant to give a -1 thinking it was me and messed up. Ever since he found he was missing one chromosome, he tries to -1 everything he can, so everything can be 'special' like him. And senility on top of all your other impairments, wow, can you say stupid ?...I know you can't spell it, so just look in the mirror and you'll see a perfect picture of it, Gramps.....rotfl http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i60/Mugsy104/noseeyepic.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cravnravn Posted October 10, 2013 Author Share Posted October 10, 2013 The basic point you're failing to see is that you have a limited amount of cap space. Making a big investment in Joe actually means that we have less money to support him, not that we should be spending more to 'protect our investment'. I'm fully aware of the cap and how it works, we built a great defense, no reason we can't protect joe, maybe he needs to mouth off as Ray did? What did we do? Drafted Ngata Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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